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Are these preservatives compatible with each other?
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You really don’t to add Caprylyl Glycol/EHG … if you are using it for emulsions, it will likely blow your viscosity. But, if you do want to use 0.3% CG/EHG would be fine. What type of proucts are you using it in?
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@MarkBroussard: I was actually just reading up some more on it.
I would be using it in an emulsion using Helisoft
(Glyceryl Behenate (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Lecithin) + Siligel (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Pullulan). It has a 15% oil phase, so I don’t want to to take a chance on messing up the viscosity/possibly destabilizing the emulsion. It only took me 30 + iterations to get the skinfeel of it just right.I used 3% Propanediol in its place, so I am hoping it will work. It’s been in the incubator for few weeks, and will send it to PET in a few more weeks.
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So you are using:
1% Euxyl PE9010 + 1% Geogard Ultra + 0.2% sodium phytate + 2% Propanediol + 3% Pentylene Glycol + 4.8 pH?
You can slim that down to:1% Euxyl PE9010 + 1% Geogard Ultra + 0.2% sodium phytate + 2% Propanediol or 2% Pentylene Glycol + 4.8 pH for your emulsion and you should be covered.
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Anca_Formulator said:I can only find Caprylyl Glycol in bulk, but I did find a smaller size Caprylyl Glycol EHG (includes 27-33% ethylhexylglycerin).Since Euxyl PE9010 already contains EHG, what percentage should I include it at to replace it in this preservative system
1% PE9010 + 0.35% Sodium Benzoate +2% Pentylene Glycol + 0.2% Phytic acid + 0.3% Caprylyl glycol?
I was thinking 0.45%? That would replace the 0.3% and add an additional 0.14% EHG (roughly) to the formula. Does that work?
Thank you
You can use the source I use for CG:
Hexanediol CG | MakingCosmetics
Granted it come with some hexanediol, but I don’t think anyone will complain about that (just one more good booster).
I use that at .5% as part of a larger hurdle system,…which should give you about .25% of each. -
@MarkBroussard Thank you for all your help with this approach. Super helpful.
@Graillotion: Thank you for sharing your source. Funny, the bulk Caprylyl Glycol I found was also from MakingCosmetics
So you’ve used Hexanediol CG in emulsions? How did it affect the viscosity?
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Anca_Formulator said:.
@Graillotion: Thank you for sharing your source. Funny, the bulk Caprylyl Glycol I found was also from MakingCosmetics
So you’ve used Hexanediol CG in emulsions? How did it affect the viscosity?
I use that in every formula…just part of what I call…the structural bones. All my formulas tend to have the same structural bones, and I just hang different ornaments on them.
As I am using the combo at a low rate (.5%), I have not noticed a viscosity decrease, albeit I have not made a formula with and without. So, since it is one of my building blocks from the beginning of each formula, and the thickeners are built around it… I have never had that ‘introductory moment’ where it is introduced into the formula…and I go…’dang’.
I also use a pretty elaborate grouping of emulsifiers, and this may also have an effect…in that there is not just one or two players doing all the work.
I also use a number of thickeners that take time to show their viscosity, so I never know final viscosity until a day or two later.
As I love many of my viscosity builders…I am usually fine tuning a formula, by having to reduce my loves…. myristyl myristate, cetyl palmitate, behenyl alcohol, polymerics and squalane wax…and many of their friends.
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Graillotion makes an excellent point. Esp. in preservative context, develop a combination that gives consistent efficacy through the range of type formulas. Likely shampoos will not be the same as lotions - but within each through it’s own range of pH, emulsifiers, etc. it will speed development and give consistent protection.
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FAIL!
My emulsion preservative system (1% PE9010 +0.35% Sodium Benzoate + 2% Pentylene Glycol + 3% Propanediol 1,3 + 0.2 Sodium Phytate + ph. 4.
failed the elevated temp (42 C) after 3 weeks!! It turned brownish and could see mold forming with the naked eye. I followed GMP, everything was sanitized, the raw materials were from new lots. What might have happened here?
My emulsifier is Heliosoft + Siligel as co-emulsifier/gelling. There are no WS extracts or hydrosols. Oil phase 15%. There is inulin/fructose at 1% (microbe food?). I know Heliosoft can do up to 0.5% monovalent electrolytes, so Sodium Benzoate should theoretically be fine.
I have made several iterations of this formula, always preserved with Germall and never had micro issues at 1 month elevated, or 6 mo. RT, even 14 months for a version without inulin.
I imagine the answer is some knock-out batches, but what would I even knock-out?
Any ideas?
Thank you. -
Anca_Formulator said:FAIL!
My emulsion preservative system (1% PE9010 +0.35% Sodium Benzoate + 2% Pentylene Glycol + 3% Propanediol 1,3 + 0.2 Sodium Phytate + ph. 4.
failed the elevated temp (42 C) after 3 weeks!! It turned brownish and could see mold forming with the naked eye. I followed GMP, everything was sanitized, the raw materials were from new lots. What might have happened here?
My emulsifier is Heliosoft + Siligel as co-emulsifier/gelling. There are no WS extracts or hydrosols. Oil phase 15%. There is inulin/fructose at 1% (microbe food?). I know Heliosoft can do up to 0.5% monovalent electrolytes, so Sodium Benzoate should theoretically be fine.
I have made several iterations of this formula, always preserved with Germall and never had micro issues at 1 month elevated, or 6 mo. RT, even 14 months for a version without inulin.
I imagine the answer is some knock-out batches, but what would I even knock-out?
Any ideas?
Thank you.Were you using this batch too or it failed in a closed container without even being touched?
What about the smell of product?
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It failed in a closed container. No change in smell. What looks like mold is miniscule.But it did turn a greyish color from a light blue (from Blue Tansy).
I’m doing a micro now, won’t know for a few days. -
It was simply not a stable preservative system in your product. Germall plus I assume an antifungal and chelator is more stable. Products are not sterile so growth of a fungal contaminant is not necessarily a problem with manufacturing hygiene.
If you’re certain you see a mold colony - why waste time culturing? Your issue is with preservation. -
@PhilGeis: Thank you. The issue is indeed the preservation, but Germall Plus is a formaldehyde donor (Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate) whereas the preservative system that failed is natural.
I would in a heart beat use the Germall but the issue is consumer perception…If I wanted to go natural, what other options do I have?
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It’s only “natural” by the credentialing BS.
any chance pH has drifted high? -
Any way to work around your two lecithin sources? Pretty sure that is the number one bug food in the world.
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@Graillotion OY! It took me many iterations to get to this texture. I have no idea what to swap it for for a similar texture 😮
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If you’re using the gum….at low levels….I doubt you would notice a swap to Solagum AX.
As far as the emulsifier….yeah…you’d have to try a few things.
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Hehe….double lecithin source…. Isn’t that just taunting fate?
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@Graillotion: Sure, not use that system, but that’s one of the reasons I’ve stayed away from natural preservatives until now. I don’t want my preservative system to be limit my choice of ‘natural ingredients
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(1) The preservative system containing Phenoxyethanol is not natural
(2) Not unusual for an emulsion that is blue at RT from the inclusion of Blue Tansy oil to turn brown in the oven. Your base prior to the inclusion of blue tansy oil would have been a light beige.
(3) Have you confirmed that it is a indded preservative fail
(4) Yep, Lecitin + Lecithin … you created for yourself a very difficult system to preserve
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MarkBroussard said:@Anca_Formulator
(2) Not unusual for an emulsion that is blue at RT from the inclusion of Blue Tansy oil to turn brown in the oven. Your base prior to the inclusion of blue tansy oil would have been a light beige.
I use BT EO….and have not had the issue…but I use a pretty maxed out AntiOx program. The usual E + ROE but then I also add ascorbyl palmitate that purportedly really enhances the performance of E. I cannot support this comment…just what I heard on the street. Granted…it works for me.
I did not test under elevated temps…just time….a year at room temp. As you are aware…sometimes the stress test will produce results that will essentially never manifest in real life.
** Are you using BT that is beyond reproach? I am guessing that would be a TOP choice for a vendor to adulterate. (I get mine from New Directions Aromatics.)
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@MarkBroussard: Indeed, phenoxyethanol as a cosmetic ingredient is not natural, although it occurs naturally in green tea and chickory. I’ve referred to it as natural in a few of my posts, but what I meant is that it is nature-identical, and marginally tolerated in natural formulations form what I’ve read.
I get it that the lecithin is hard to preserve. But Heliosoft (Glyceryl Behenate (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Lecithin) is COSMOS and comes from 100% natural origin ingredients. I wonder what natural preservative could be used, since it seems to be geared towards the natural formulations. And Siligel (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Pullulan) is also natural.
After posting this I went back and re-read through my Heliosoft literature and although phenoxyethanol is not listed under its incompatibilities, it is nonetheless problematic according to this statement “ingredients known to destabilize cell membranes, i.e ethoxylated ingredients ( and preservative boosters with surfactant properties) could also impact the stability of lamellar networks”
@Graillotion: I get my Blue Tansy from Eden Botanicals and they carry really high quality EOs. I did make my own 10% dilution in hemp seed oil for the purpose of this emulsion. What percentage each do you use of E, ROE and ascorbyl palmitate?
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Is preBiulin FOS (Inulin and Fructose) microbe food too? I can’t tell since it’s purported to kill the bad bacteria in favor of the good guys, but it is a polysaccharide so isn’t that dessert for microbes?
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In theory. preBiulin FOS serves as a nutrient for the beneficial skin microbiome bacteria, but does not serve as a nutrient for “bad” bacteria. The concept is competition between microbial species, similar to the way various microorganisms keep each other in check in the gut.
I think lecithin is your major problem as a source of nutrient for microbial contamination.
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The concept of “bug food” is generally pretty irrelevant. The typical contaminants grow well enough in water, even distilled water
If lecithin is the issue - it’s likely as a preservative neutralizer. It’s used for that purpose in recovery media.
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@Anca_Formulator As @PhilGeis mentioned, did you have a pH drift over time, with the sample you put in the oven? Also, under which conditions (part of the process, temperature) you’re adding your preservatives, especially PE 9010 and Sodium benzoate?
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