Home Cosmetic Science Talk General Almost fell out of my chair…and hadn’t been drinking, evaluate this statement:

  • Almost fell out of my chair…and hadn’t been drinking, evaluate this statement:

    Posted by graillotion on April 17, 2023 at 9:55 pm

    “With the diploma course from the Institute of Personal Care Science, you will identify yourself as a cosmetic chemist upon graduation.”

    OMG…is this just a mommy blogger gone rogue? Most of those grads don’t know which way is up.

    I am fully aware….of one that roams the net…calling herself a cosmetic chemist after purchasing a course…and there is NO WAY you could convince me she finished high school! NO WAY.

    If this is the case….than the title ‘cosmetic chemist’ has NO VALUE?

    I have always been fine with them calling themselves ‘cosmetic formulators’….but this is just over the line!

    Your thoughts?

    graillotion replied 7 months, 2 weeks ago 7 Members · 18 Replies
  • 18 Replies
  • jemolian

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 3:46 am

    It’s mainly the way they claim the “title”.

    Even if i had finished my diploma with IPCS, i don’t call myself a cosmetic chemist as i don’t have a chemistry background, i just identify myself as a formulator. 😌

  • philgeis

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 6:07 am

    Looked at the “credentials” of their folks - mostly that they took the course

  • Ron_93

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 12:01 pm

    There are biologists, physicians (MDs), nurses, and a couple of U of C students, as well as alumni who have completed their programs. I don’t think it’s fair to say “most of those grads don’t know which way is up” when there are grads who come from various educational backgrounds. I have a BS in biological sciences and have completed their certificate program. I thought it was great, although I am not seeking to be a “cosmetic chemist” (seeking to start my own brand and wanting formulation knowledge).

    Granted, I think “cosmetic formulator” would be a better title or “cosmetic scientist” for those who possess a degree from a different science discipline. Moreover, US standards are different from AU standards. So, maybe they can call themselves “cosmetic chemists” in the AU since their school is registered and accredited with the AU. It’s just saddening to see the amount of hate it gets, especially from people who have not actually attended the program to form a sound opinion of it (IMHO).

    • graillotion

      Member
      April 18, 2023 at 2:46 pm

      As with any topic…one should probably not throw an all inclusive blanket over everyone. πŸ™‚ There will always be the few that had some natural acumen that allows them to sort through material. There are even some on this forum that have taken the course…and I would not include all of them in the blanket statement.

      HOWEVER….as I spend a LOT of time helping out on beginner sites… I run across the vast majority of the graduates in those places. They are simply the bane of the internet…dispensing scientifically inaccurate information, and posing as those who know something. They are completely unteachable, and will become extremely violent when they are presented with actual science. I once asked one of them…”When science and the head mommy conflict….which information do you go with?” They answered that they were told to follow the head mommy in the face of science. I have always tried to give the program the benefit of the doubt…and for the most part took the view….many of the graduates simply did not understand the material….vs… the material was wrong. But the violence on behalf of the graduates….is simply astounding.

      So, I apologize if you felt my statement of the many…included the all. I just feel there is no greater disrespect for those that got an actual education…. to be thrown in the same boat (title) with those who did not.

      • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
      • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
      • This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by  Graillotion.
  • philgeis

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 3:25 pm

    I understand Ron liked the course and it was apparently adequate to get him started. The staff on their website did not impress as to experience - esp. regarding the various “certificates” offered. But for the director Ms. Carli, their relevant training is all within the institute. As a “diploma” granting program claiming international recognition as the “… world’s premier on-line cosmetic product and personal care training institute”. Figured folks would know it.

  • Ron_93

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 3:37 pm

    Becoming “extremely violent” and being unteachable sounds more like a character flaw of the individual than a deficiency in the program. May I ask why you refer to the individual you’re referring to as “mommy” or “head mommy”? It is ok to disagree and have your own opinion, but it comes off as a tad bit rude to call people by things other than their name because you do not agree with what they are doing/saying.

    Needless to say, I can understand the frustration of sharing a title. However, I just think it’s unfair to judge a program that you’ve never attended based upon the behavior or lack thereof of its select few graduates. By no means am I trying to be argumentative or disrespectful. I’ve just seen these sentiments one too many times based on interactions with people who did not understand or grasp the material in its entirety. A basic understanding of biology, chemistry, and physics is indeed needed to be successful, as some sections are more science-based than others (example below). Peace and blessings.

    • graillotion

      Member
      April 19, 2023 at 4:23 pm

      The title came from me doing my due diligence on the creators educational background.

      You are correct, I am judging the program based on the graduates I have encountered. We all know that the most ignorant segment of society…is the loudest (see politics). So of course the worst graduates draw the most attention.

      To be fair…I have met many actual PhD’s, that I also consider ignorant… as with any schooling….about anyone can accomplish it with enough persistence. Persistence does not equate itelligence.

      I have judged the course work…based on the repeated errors I hear disseminated by the graduates. This is again…not fair…because it would be my hope they simple did not understand the course work, vs the course work was flawed from the inception. But based on the creators background…one would have to suspect that some of the coursework is flawed, as well as the same errors being repeated by various different individuals.

      I have judiciously used FaceBook ‘blocking’ to eliminate almost all course graduates from my scope of life…. otherwise I would love to share some of their insights with you.

      My entire point has been…the UTTER disrespect….for those that actually obtained the required degrees, and earned their titles… that seem to be considered acceptable from this organization. That is all.

  • paprik

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 6:48 pm

    I understand both sides.

    1. We should not be really calling ourselves Cosmetic CHEMISTS if we do not have any chemistry background.

    2. However, this course does offer this opportunity and does provide this title upon finishing the Diploma. That is a given.

    3. (According to them) It is well recognized in the industry and AUS, NZ and around companies do give them job opportunities/offers in the positions. It is approved training program under AUS government.

    They could not just create whatever program and give Diplomas just coz. This is what I believe in.

    4. I understand that USA and around have different levels, different points of view or education system. Fair enough.

    5. However, not everyone who finishes a school in USA and around is truly what they studied. [Cheating etc] Meaning, you can always trick the system and finish the school and not know everything or be really bad.

    6. We understand that you @Graillotion are very experienced, have attention to detail, love to teach people and you are doing great stuff [I really mean it! I respect you!], but make a post just coz of this really shows some kind of hate or .. just a need to bark and get some supportive comments. Meaning - was it really necessary? There will be always good peeps and bad peeps. No needs to ruin your day by chasing the bad peeps. I know you are trying your best to educate everyone, which is admirable! But .. maybe you are taking it too personally πŸ™‚


    In a nutshell, I can call myself a cosmetic chemist because I finished AUS Diploma course.

    However I am not truly a cosmetic chemist. Does it makes sense? No, it does not πŸ˜€ I know … But hey, it won’t lower my rent or park my car πŸ˜€

    Have a great day guys πŸ™‚

    • graillotion

      Member
      April 19, 2023 at 4:30 pm

      I respect your views and opinions.

      You are right…I have anger with the topic….and here is where it stems from:

      I do have the passion to help others you mention, and this is where the anger arises. The beginner….has simply no ability to weigh good information from bad. So the only tool they have to weigh the information…is the title of the person that gives it.

      So…. you can see where I am going with this… if someone poses as a cosmetic chemist, then their information will be assumed to be correct…..by the beginner. The beginner will almost always also select the information they hear the most often, even if it is incorrect. So if I am on a beginner forum, that might have three certificate holders posing as chemists, it is one voice against several voices with purported titles. Guess what….the correct information loses….EVERY TIME. The beginners do not do their due diligence…and research the data!

      If one of these fake chemist came onto this site…and spewed their garbage…we have the cognative abilities to laugh them out of here. Not the case….on a beginner site they like in infect.

      So ‘ell yes…I get angry!

      • paprik

        Member
        April 19, 2023 at 7:25 pm

        Oh yeah, I completely agree with this. And feel you anger and frustration. I saw you in a few FB groups commenting.

        I stopped to do that. I have been also kicked out out of a few groups because I got so angry and just lost it. πŸ˜€

        Problem of this time/era is that everyone can and has opinion and they happily share it. And other ppl are thirsty for free information and read and believe anything.

        Another problem is, those who are giving wrong answers/bad advised usually think they are right and are so stubborn to admit they are not. #shame init

        The main thing is, you need to chill as you are fighting endless war you cannot win. You are great, wise, experienced, but cannot save the world. You will have perfect skin and divine armpit (from your deo πŸ™‚ ), but it will take a toll on your mental health. πŸ™

        • graillotion

          Member
          April 19, 2023 at 8:06 pm

          Hehehe…I have also been asked to leave two groups…but not for an outburst or the information.

          I was simply told…. (I have slightly reworded their response)… these sites are created for the glorification of the founders….and anyone having more knowledge than them…are asked to leave, or you will be removed. πŸ™‚

      • jemolian

        Member
        April 19, 2023 at 7:48 pm

        I understand the anger, but i feel it’s a lesson the beginners need to learn. If they don’t research, cross check and expect to be spoon fed without experimentation, then they don’t learn. It’s just a matter of cost, either time or money, etc, or worse, their health.

        Though not just people with diplomas are spewing incorrect info, a Taiwan influencer who’s a biologist (if i didn’t recall wrongly) is also spewing incorrect info, and some cosmetic chemists over there are ranting about it. I missed the initial drama so i didn’t follow up on that.

        So what can we do to reduce this from happening?

        • graillotion

          Member
          April 19, 2023 at 8:04 pm

          We cannot reduce it (I guess)… just the name of the game. πŸ™‚

          I guess….the reason I wanted to give back…was so much was given to me! It has created a burden, that hundreds, if not thousands of hours of knowledge has been imparted to me….and I feel it a crime, to not give back. Those that invested in me…expected me to return the gift.

          Many times…I have been asked why I help….with the inference that I should just let them wallow where they are. I cannot answer why…. I have the compulsion to help them elevate themselves.

          • jemolian

            Member
            April 20, 2023 at 1:40 am

            I understand.

            Normally i will leave some important or critical information to their problem depending on how i feel. If they really want to get more info, it will be up to them to reply or ask more. It will be good to get them thinking about it and test it out. Some people do PM me on facebook or reply to my comments.

            Just don’t feel too pressed about it and over feed them because it might not be their time to absorb whatever you want to impart.

  • philgeis

    Member
    April 18, 2023 at 7:56 pm

    Think Graillotion made a good point and one that many of us have experienced. Whether it sticks to the program mentioned here may be in question.

  • SnowBunnyChemist

    Member
    April 20, 2023 at 1:56 pm

    Some people don’t want to learn, they just want to be β€œright”. πŸ™„

  • Perry44

    Administrator
    April 21, 2023 at 3:36 am

    I’ll preface this by saying that they put on a fine program and generally teach useful and accurate stuff.

    I do object to the marketing of their courses. The implication of their marketing is that if you take their courses, you will be qualified to get a job as a cosmetic chemist in the industry. At least in the US, this is just not true. In the US, if you do not have a degree in Chemistry, Chemical Engineering or some similar science, you will not get a job as a cosmetic chemist.

    These diplomas that are given out by online courses (there are lots of them) are just BS marketing if you ask me. Giving someone a diploma is misleading people into thinking they are more qualified than they actually are. And just declaring that something is “industry recognized” might be helpful for course marketing but it doesn’t mean much beyond that.

    There aren’t really standards by which a person can call themselves a cosmetic chemist. Anyone can just say they are, and lots of people do. That doesn’t make it true.

    Think of it like cooking. You can watch a Youtube video to learn how to make an omelette. You can even do an online course and learn all about making different sauces. But if all of your learning about cooking comes from doing online courses, you can’t call yourself a “chef”. I mean you can, but you aren’t a chef.

    But I don’t get too upset about it. There are people I know who have worked as cosmetic chemists, and have backgrounds in chemistry and all the relevant qualifications…and they were terrible at their jobs.

    If your experience in the subject is your own personal research & taking online “diploma” courses, it’s reasonable to consider yourself a “cosmetic formulator.”

    To be a “cosmetic chemist” or “cosmetic scientist” I believe you should meet the following criteria.

    1. University degree in a natural science (chemistry, biology, physics)

    2. Time spent working for a company in the industry as a chemist

    But unless there is some kind of bar exam or other universal requirements, anyone can call themselves a cosmetic chemist, and they will.

    • graillotion

      Member
      April 21, 2023 at 3:04 pm

      Thank you Perry. I guess this topic is a lot like the topic of ‘NATURAL’ in cosmetics. Just not defined well.

      It is very probable I would have never started this thread….if only the competent graduates ‘claimed’ the title of ‘chemist’. (Still wouldn’t agree…)

      But as the world works…. it is the MOST INCOMPETENT, that claim the title. One in particular…. as mentioned…you could not convince me in a thousand years that she had completed high school…. she is LOUD and insistent that her ignorance be heard. If I had not FB blocked her, I would love to cut and paste her entertaining intellect for all to enjoy. She does not start a conversation without saying ‘she is a cosmetic chemist’. πŸ˜‚

      I do suppose…. industry is appreciative of people like this, as it keeps competition to a minimum. I have long assumed, this type of subversion is planned and managed….and not an accident. ooops…did I say that out loud? πŸ˜…

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