Does better foaming indicate harsher surfactants?

DaveStone

Dove Beauty Bar is claimed to be around skin PH. It foams very well. Cerave and Cetaphil daily face cleansers (which claim to be gentle) don't foam much at all, and they're also said to be around skin PH.

Does this mean using the Dove Beauty Bar on your face is harsher? I've noticed that products labeled for your face don't foam well, if at all.

Abdullah

No foam has no relationship with mildness. If in theory the mildness of both are the same in practice the one with more foam will be milder because you would use less of that.

Skin pH is 4.7. is the pH of those products 4.7?

If you write the ingredients list we would know which one is milder

zetein

The pH of Dove bar is ~7 and they actually published an article that the pH ~7 bar is milder than pH 4-5 bars, debunking the low pH cleanser myth.

The theory behind this is that neutral pH makes keratin less positively charged, therefore less interaction between skin and anionic surfactant.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/ics.12721

Abdullah

@zetein very interesting. I have nothing to say about this but eagerly want to see what the respected teachers have to say about this.

If the skin is positivity charged then why cationic emulsions stick so tightly to skin and resist being washed but anionic emulsions are very easily being removed by water?

Also this data shows same cleaning formulation at pH 4 is milder than pH 7.

DaveStone

Abdullah said:

No foam has no relationship with mildness. If in theory the mildness of both are the same in practice the one with more foam will be milder because you would use less of that.

Skin pH is 4.7. is the pH of those products 4.7?

If you write the ingredients list we would know which one is milder

Cerave Facial Cleanser: Aqua / Water / Eau, Cocamidopropyl Hydroxysultaine, Glycerin, Sodium Lauroyl Sarcosinate, Peg-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Niacinamide, Peg-6 Caprylic/Capric Glycerides, Sodium Methyl Cocoyl Taurate, Propylene Glycol, Ceramide NP, Ceramide AP, Ceramide EOP, Carbomer, Methylparaben, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Cholesterol, Disodium EDTA, Propylparaben, Citric Acid, Tetrasodium EDTA, Hydrolyzed Hyaluronic Acid, Phytosphingosine, Xanthan Gum.

Dove Beauty Bar: Sodium Lauroyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Lauric Acid, Sodium Oleate, Water (Eau), Sodium Isethionate, Sodium Stearate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Glycerin, Sodium Laurate, Tetrasodium Etidronate, Tetrasodium EDTA, Sodium Chloride, Kaolin or (ou) Titanium Dioxide.

Abdullah

Dove has high foaming mild anionic surfactant as main surfactant. Cerave has mild amphoteric surfactant as main surfactant. 

I think cerave would be milder for protein and dove for lipids

DaveStone

Abdullah said:

Dove has high foaming mild anionic surfactant as main surfactant. Cerave has mild amphoteric surfactant as main surfactant. 

I think cerave would be milder for protein and dove for lipids

Which is easier for the skin to replenish, protein or lipids?

Abdullah

DaveStone said:

Abdullah said:

Dove has high foaming mild anionic surfactant as main surfactant. Cerave has mild amphoteric surfactant as main surfactant. 

I think cerave would be milder for protein and dove for lipids

Which is easier for the skin to replenish, protein or lipids?

Both because it is not too much. 
These surfactants are among the mildest in there category.

I personally don't like amphoteric or non-ionic surfactant as main surfactant. 

DaveStone

Abdullah said:

I personally don't like amphoteric or non-ionic surfactant as main surfactant. 

Because of their performance?

Abdullah

Yes. They don't clean as well as anionic

DaveStone

Abdullah said:

Yes. They don't clean as well as anionic

That leads me to another question...are nonionic or amphoteric surfactants sufficient for daily facial cleansing? I could see if you haven't washed your face in a week or so, then maybe something stronger is warranted. Does it take much to get a face clean, that hasn't been washed in 12-42 hours? Is a mild surfactant strong enough to rid the skin of previously applied moisturizer/lotion?

DaveStone

Is castile (olive oil) soap anionic?

Abdullah

DaveStone said:

Is castile (olive oil) soap anionic?

Soap is bad

Abdullah

DaveStone said:

Abdullah said:

Yes. They don't clean as well as anionic

That leads me to another question...are nonionic or amphoteric surfactants sufficient for daily facial cleansing? I could see if you haven't washed your face in a week or so, then maybe something stronger is warranted. Does it take much to get a face clean, that hasn't been washed in 12-42 hours? Is a mild surfactant strong enough to rid the skin of previously applied moisturizer/lotion?

I don't wash my face daily with cleanser. For daily wash pure water is enough. 

I wash my hair and face and body 2 or 3 times a week with one product for all and that has about 11% SLS and SLES and that is completely fine for me.

DaveStone

Abdullah said:

DaveStone said:

Is castile (olive oil) soap anionic?

Soap is bad

Isn't that just a myth? I mean...people have been using soap for centuries.

Abdullah

Maybe centuries ago these surfactants weren't available.  

Now that it has better alternative why use it? 

Centuries ago we were traveling on donkey. That was best on that time because there wasn't a better option available. Now that we have care the donkey is no longer the best option. 
Although donkey is natural and car is unnatural too hahaha.

DaveStone

Are there any studies that show a long-term noticeable effect on the skin from using soap?

vitalys

@DaveStone ;
Effect of soaps and detergents on epidermal barrier function - ScienceDirect

The use of a measure of acute irritation to predict the outcome of repeated usage of hand soap products - Williams - 2011 - British Journal of Dermatology - Wiley Online Library

WCD_2983802.pdf (sheffield.ac.uk)

DaveStone

vitalys said:

@DaveStone ;
Effect of soaps and detergents on epidermal barrier function - ScienceDirect

The use of a measure of acute irritation to predict the outcome of repeated usage of hand soap products - Williams - 2011 - British Journal of Dermatology - Wiley Online Library

WCD_2983802.pdf (sheffield.ac.uk)

Interesting...in that third article it says "Protease activity does not elevate
if a mild cleanser that does not increase skin-surface-pH is used". But I thought even mild cleansers raise the skin PH? Dove Sensitive Skin Bar is neutral. I don't know what the PH of the Cerave is. I haven't found any 4-6 PH cleansers. And someone in another thread said it wouldn't matter anyhow as you're rinsing with water, thus raising the PH of the skin. Hmm.

Syl

When I read these studies, I always wonder who sponsored the research. I make soap, body wash, and shampoo. I have dry skin, and eczema, I find that using a bar of mild soap on a daily basis is ok. A dove bar with a PH of 7 feels less drying. For regular hand wash or face wash, a mild cleanser like SCI at a PH of 6 or lower feels best at low concentration. It all depends on your target audience, teens need more cleansing, adults want more moisturizing and less drying.

DaveStone

I was just looking at Cetaphil's Daily Facial Cleanser list:

Water, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Panthenol, Niacinamide, Pantolactone, Xanthan Gum, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Benzoate, Citric Acid

I can't seem to find much info on Pantolactone...must be a new ingredient. Funny, the old bottle I had from two years ago had parabens and sodium lauryl suflate.