Why L'Oréal Paris has removed CAPB from all of their shampoos?

AbdullahAbdullah Member
edited August 2021 in Formulating
I checked L'Oréal Paris shampoos today and surprisingly most of their new shampoos don't have CAPB or another amphoteric surfactant even in those with SLS. Other companies also list CAPB very low in there list. 

Anyone has any openion why?

one of their shampoos

AQUA / WATER / EAU
SODIUM LAURETH SULFATE
SODIUM LAURYL SULFATE
COCAMIDE MEA
GLYCOL DISTEARATE
SODIUM CHLORIDE
DIMETHICONE
PARFUM / FRAGRANCE
PPG-5-CETETH-20
SODIUM BENZOATE
SALICYLIC ACID
GUAR HYDROXYPROPYLTRIMONIUM CHLORIDE
CARBOMER
ARGININE
GLUTAMIC ACID
LINALOOL
BENZYL SALICYLATE
BENZYL ALCOHOL
SERINE
HYDROXYPROPYLTRIMONIUM HYDROLYZED WHEAT PROTEIN
LIMONENE
AMYL CINNAMAL
COUMARIN
CITRONELLOL
2-OLEAMIDO-1,3-OCTADECANEDIOL
ALPHA-ISOMETHYL IONONE
FUMARIC ACID
PHENOXYETHANOL
SODIUM HYDROXIDE
CITRIC ACID

Comments

  • I found that L'Oréal, the whole company, around the world, uses Coco-Betaine instead of Cocamidopropyl Betaine in shampoo and face wash. Not sure why, could be they are manufacturing their own amphoteric surfactant.
    The only pro I can think of for Coco-Betaine is that it eliminates dimethylaminopropylamine, which is considered a sensitizer and part of the reason why CAPB gets a bad reputation.
    But this seems irrelevant to your thread since Coco-Betaine wasn't used either.
    Regarding your question, I remember it was answered once and it was down to the called "structured surfactant system", something I don't comprehend as a civilian and would call for an Explain Like I'm Five from the real chemists.
    It was barely mentioned in this talkboard and I got a blank search result for the word "spherulite", could possibly due to that everyone hates oil in shampoo here and structured surfactant system stands out for their oil holding/delivering ability.
  • @zetein yeah in the past they used coco betaine but in some new formulas there wasn't any amphoteric.

    Maybe i am wrong but as i know SLS and SLES doesn't make structured system. And this doesn't have any other surfactant. 
  • Since they have Salicylic acid and Sodium benzoate, that shampoo might have a fairly low pH. Low pH plus highly anionic surfactants (like SLS and SLES) makes CAPB a no-go, since CAPB behaves as a cationic surfactant at low pH (aprox. below 5), and it might form a precipitate with anionics when added. 
  • @ketchito that is interesting. I should try and see that.
    What about other amphoteric surfactants like lauryl Hydroxysultaine? 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    They don't have CAPB because they don't need it.  CAPB is added to a formula as a secondary surfactant to boost foam or maybe to alter rheological properties.

    They have SLS, SLES and Cocamide MEA.  So CAPB is not needed as it provides no benefit that you don't get from Cocamide MEA.

    The formula you listed also has Carbomer which can modify the rheology and help suspend the Dimethicone.
  • em88em88 Member
    ketchito said:
    Since they have Salicylic acid and Sodium benzoate, that shampoo might have a fairly low pH. Low pH plus highly anionic surfactants (like SLS and SLES) makes CAPB a no-go, since CAPB behaves as a cationic surfactant at low pH (aprox. below 5), and it might form a precipitate with anionics when added. 
    What? I haven't had issues with my formulations having both SA and CAPB. 
  • @Perry thanks. 
    Obviously it may be mild enough for scalp. So SLES/SLS without CAPB can also make a mild surfactant.
    what would the ratio of SLES/SLS be to make it mild?
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah - Mildness is subjective. When I first worked on the VO5 line the product was about 10% SLS and 1% SLES. We used Lauramide DEA but that didn't have much impact on "mildness." However, compared to a baby shampoo it certainly wasn't mild. I think a 50:50 ratio would be fine for most people.

  • @Perry thanks 
    Were they using SLS powder or liquid? 
    I use SLS powder and for 10% SLS i need 8% citric acid powder to reduce the pH to around 5. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    We used 28% active solution of SLS. 
    Also, adjusted the pH using Hydrochloric acid if I recall.
  • @Perry thanks
  • @em88 The problem is not having SA with CAPB, the problem is having an anionic surfactant, low pH and CAPB. 
  • SylSyl Member
    I think they removed it because cocamidopropyl betaine was named allergen of the year in 2004 by the American Contact Dermatitis Society.
    https://www.dermatitisacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/CAPB.pdf
  • @Syl thanks 
  • em88em88 Member
    ketchito said:
    @em88 The problem is not having SA with CAPB, the problem is having an anionic surfactant, low pH and CAPB. 
    Oh, I somehow missed that while reading your post before. Sorry. That would be correct, but it is something that you have to take into consideration anyway. Adding 2-3% of SA in a shampoo with anionic surfactants may drop the pH about 3-4. At this point, the pH has to be corrected. 
  • @em88 No worries, I had my share of nightmares about that same issue some time ago. 
  • Perry said:
    @Abdullah - Mildness is subjective. When I first worked on the VO5 line the product was about 10% SLS and 1% SLES. We used Lauramide DEA but that didn't have much impact on "mildness." However, compared to a baby shampoo it certainly wasn't mild. I think a 50:50 ratio would be fine for most people.

    @p@Perry can i ask why were they using 1% SLES with 10% SLS? 
    I mean what was that 1% SLES adding to 10% SLS formula? 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah -  "what was that 1% SLES adding to 10% SLS formula? "

    It helped change the characteristics of the foam - tighter, more stable bubbles.
  • Thanks Perry
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