LABMADE OLIVEM 1000 Alike

greetings.

I'm attempting to make an emulsifier like OLIVEM 1000, inci cetearyl Olivate and sorbitan Olivate

I was reading about transesterification of cetearyl alcohol with olive oil in a acid medium, and making the same with Sorbitol.   Has anyone tried something like that?. Please keep in mind that is not available OLIVEM or alike in my country.

Comments

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Simply pick a different emulsifier. It is far easier and there are far better emulsifiers. It is a very detailed process and lacking a deep familiarity with the technical processes nearly impossible.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @Microformulation Thanks you very much, i just wondering if someone did something like olivem, it looked like a simple procedure. im familiarized with esterifications and i have lab and medium scale equipments for sterification, but working with only oleic/stearic acid comming from olive oil and pairing an alcohol in acid catalyst its more difficult than simple transterification.

    I already have other surfactants, but i want to offer something more "natural", and there are a lot of olivem fans out there.  

    I think that i have the equipments, but i will appreciate any input.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    No offense, but in my opinion most Formulators move away from Olivem and others such as they grow in skill and familiarity with better and newer emulsifiers. You rarely see either in mainstream commercial products.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Cafe33Cafe33 Member
    Have you ever worked with Olivem 1000? I am a beginner formulator and found it quite greasy. There are ways around it as suggested by some board members here but I haven't tried it. DIY formulators do not really care, it is more about trending ingredients, so I understand the interest.
     
    If you need a sample, there is a repacker here in Mexico that sells it. I would be happy to send you the bag I have if it can help you.  
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Cafe33 Over the years we moved away from it. Many of our clients liked Olivoil Glutamate as a direct replacement for Olivem as it solves many of the whitening/feel issues. https://www.kalichem.it/ingredients/olivoil-glutamate-emulsifier-g-pf/

    There are how ever too many other great emulsifiers which fortunately are available from repackers or retail sites such as Formulator Sample Shop.


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @Cafe33 Over the years we moved away from it. Many of our clients liked Olivoil Glutamate as a direct replacement for Olivem as it solves many of the whitening/feel issues. https://www.kalichem.it/ingredients/olivoil-glutamate-emulsifier-g-pf/

    There are how ever too many other great emulsifiers which fortunately are available from repackers or retail sites such as Formulator Sample Shop.


    Just curious....what is high on your list?

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    If you want to perform transesterification, use base catalysis and go the detour via methyl ester ;) .
    Acid catalysis works but takes time and/or high temperatures. Also, polyunsaturated fatty acids don't do well with sulfuric acid (@luiscuevasii it was you who can't get that anyway, right?). Use p-toluenesulfonic acid if you can get that or simply google some reaction strategies (these days, people use enzymes for esterification and transesterification reactions).
    You'll also have to figure out a way to get glycerol out of the system as it's more reactive than sorbitol and cetearyl alcohol. Add an excess sorbitol or work under vacuum to evaporate glycerol in case of cetearyl alcohol (that approach won't work with sorbitol due to their similar boiling points).
  • Pharma said:
    If you want to perform transesterification, use base catalysis and go the detour via methyl ester ;) .
    Acid catalysis works but takes time and/or high temperatures. Also, polyunsaturated fatty acids don't do well with sulfuric acid (@luiscuevasii it was you who can't get that anyway, right?). 
    Thanks for your input, yes, I'm the one that can't work with sulfuric, nitric and clorhídrico. 

    I was planning using Naoh and methyl ester route, I had made biodiesel before, and glycerin for example just go down and separate.  
  • No offense, but in my opinion most Formulators move away from Olivem and others such as they grow in skill and familiarity with better and newer emulsifiers. You rarely see either in mainstream commercial products.
    It's not offensive at all, I'm aware, I just want to have a product that could make "natural" consumers well.  I know that there are plenty of new and better emulsifiers, but in my country basically we can only emulsify with Sles, peg100 stearate, GMS, tweens, and cellulose polymers like Hemc.

    There aren't options, we are under a USA sanctions and economy here isn't going well, so importing emulsifiers is not a priority.



  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    NaOH isn't super great... Every time you use it, you'll have to make sure it's really dry or the water in it will always react first. It also creates water by reacting with free fatty acids; it therefore pays off to first neutralise these, dry the oil and then proceed or you'll end up with twice the amount in free acids after esterification.
    For the transesterification, the same rules apply. Methanol is great because it's volatile and can be removed throughout the process and that drives the synthesis to completion.
    Gotta run...
  • @Pharma I'm so sorry, Im planning to use citric or phosphoric acid, I misspelled and confused the resction because I was thinking in biodiesel.

    For olivem I have those acids available
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Citric won't work at all or at least not sufficiently enough.
    Phosphoric acid has a bunch of drawbacks:
    - It is a rather weak mineral acid if compared for example with HCl or H2SO4.
    - Acid catalysis activates the acid or ester which means the acid has to get there = being at least slightly oil soluble. Phosphoric acid in this regard is probably the poorest of all common mineral acids.
    - Contains too much water which has to be evaporated at over 200°C prior to use and then it will be super hygroscopic and lead to dehydration reactions if the educts aren't clean enough (which olive oil will never be).
    - May react with the alcohols first forming for example cetyl phosphate or resulting in other weird side products. This would have the advantage that cetyl phosphate is an emulsifier and would serve as phase transfer catalyst but it also means you lose part of the alcohol and part if not all of your catalyst. And the product won't be the same either or mostly emulsified educt plus some phosphate ester looking like the emulsifier you originally intended to make.
    - Even with H3PO4 as catalyst you might have to heat too much and will get unknown side products.
    -> Forget citric and phosphoric acid.Maybe you could get sulfamic acid or Amberlist or similar ion exchange resins? Again, get some alkaline catalyst, can't be that hard.
  • Pharma said:
    Citric won't work at all or at least not sufficiently enough.
    Phosphoric acid has a bunch of drawbacks:
    - It is a rather weak mineral acid if compared for example with HCl or...
    I want to thanks for all your help, my country right know is synonym to "that hard", so everything here its a little complicated but no imposible. I mean, beginning that every raw material to be imported must be Profitable for importers, right now we are just barely achieving the basic needs, so everything that isnt food its bassically not available. Thats why almost in all my post im trying to make products from basic and raw materials, wich is very frustaiting, i mean, im trying to reproduce products that are arround 30years all or more.   

    But im very optimist, and having no competitors has its advantages. 

    Im a engenieer, so im not familiarized with deep knowloedge of catalysts, i will give you the acids availables and if you could keep help me i will appreciate:

    acetic, oxalic, formic, propionic, salicylic, fumaric, tartaric, malic, lactic.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    I'm sorry, they all won't work. These are organic acids and they are simply not acidic enough to activate other carboxylic acids or esters.

    Use calcium oxide or potassium carbonate to make biodiesel and use that to produce whatever you want ;) . Although it's two reaction steps, you still will be faster, a lot faster than with the acid route.
  • Pharma said:
    I'm sorry, they all won't work. These are organic acids and they are simply not acidic enough to activate other carboxylic acids or esters.

    Use calcium oxide or potassium carbonate to make biodiesel and use that to produce whatever you want ;) . Although it's two reaction steps, you still will be faster, a lot faster than with the acid route.
    What about working with 20% concentration HCl, I mean, I know I can try and see, but I know you have a wonderful knowledge and any input would be appreciated. HCl is under "strict" control but I could get a diluted solution in small quantity
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited August 20
    The problem with HCl is that it comes along with a lot of water. You would have to use dry HCl gas and that's not practical. HCl would work (good enough solubility in solvents and oils) but is usually not used because of those limitations (either water or gas). Remember, your main enemy in esterifications and even more so trans-esterifications is water. Whatever it takes, avoid water! Standard sulfuric acid also contains water but H2SO4 is very hygroscopic and can be made water free and that's one of the reasons for its use. However, sulfonic acids are prefered because they are easier to obtain in anhydrous form.
    As mentioned before, focus on base catalysis: Easier, cheaper, and 10 to 100 times faster!
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