dermosoft 1388

has anyone personally used dermosoft 1388 eco? i'm wondering what to pair it with in a body wash and in an o/w lotion. initially i was going to pair it with glyceryl caprylate for the lotion but i'm questioning whether this will provide sufficient protection against mold. i'm now wanting to try dermosoft 688 which is just p-anisic acid, can they be used together?

Comments

  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Neither is very effective.
  • oh, okay. have the products you used with it failed testing?
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited July 18
    Yes - and it is poor by design.   What is your pH?
  • pH of both products is around 5
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    what is your "policy" - preservatives you will and will not use
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    I use it for personal projects but combined with GMCY, pentanediol (and/or other glycols), and certain plant extracts and/or isolated plant constituents (such in which I trust to be what they claim to be, not weird fermented stuff or the scum by Active Micro Technologies).
    Do I know for sure that this blend works: NO, I don't. Were I to sell it, I would have it tested (mostly because I'm not sure how well it protects from mould).
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    The issue is that most here do not know if their preservative system works, even if they run challenge tests.  Whether USP, EP, ASTM ISO, NONE is validated for either their primary purpose (in use protection) or manufacturing protection.
    The only way to know for sure is in-use evaluation and challenge methods that attempt validation to in use risk.  

    Such alternaitve systems are the clear problem children identified in recalls and by the US FDA as putting consumers at risk.
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    And NO preservative is "broad spectrum" that is cynical supplier hype.
  • @PhilGeis I don't have an issue with parabens but I don't care to use them because of their perception. I searched through some threads on here and saw that people were seeing irritation with phenoxyethanol so i don't care to use it but i'm not completely turned off from it. i was interested in spectrastat but i can only find the version with glyceryl caprylate at the repackaged level.
  • @Pharma thanks. I have my doubts about dermosoft's protection against mold as well and the brochure's on the website don't provide enough clarity for me to not be concerned. i really wanted to use it because it seemed like a good alternative but maybe it's just time to find something else.
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Would never use spectrstat - combination of weak materials.  Glyceryl caprylate is fairly useless.
    In your context, use Nabenzoate - esp. in the body wash.  The pH is ok and you'll enjoy the surfactant-benzoic acid combined efficacy.  You'll still need something for Gram neg bacteria - maybe benzyl alcohol.  Pent or Hex glycol may extend efficacy.

    And a chelator - esp. EDTA.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    @domicanica That's why I combin it with pentanediol (1,2-hexanediol would be even better). If users get unwanted reactions to preservatives which are used at the higher end of their active range, you might consider lowering it and adding a lower amount of another preservative to balance the difference. Sure, you'd get a longer LOI with more preservatives people might take offence at... there are several pros and cons regarding more complex preservative systems.
    @PhilGeis What are your thoughts about undecylenic acid as well as salts and derivatives thereof against moulds?
    Regarding your comment on GMCY: Fairly useless as primary preservative or as booster/add-on too? I certainly wouldn't use it as primary (acutally, none of the several capric and caprylic derivatives) but as part of a hurdle approach.
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited July 18
    Pharma - think useless as its too prone to pH (>7) and microbial esterases and it's a common "preservative" in so many of the recalls in US.  And it's not that hot when it's stable.
  • thanks guys

    @PhilGeis i do have a chelator, thanks. from my research i know that sodium benzoate is commonly used with potassium sorbate and i think i've seen that blend on repacker websites. i'll also see if i can get that benzyl alcohol as well just in case.

    @Pharma, the glycols are just boosters right?
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited July 18
    I'd not use with sorbate.  No purpose with two organic acids and the benzoic acid/surfactant phenomenon is not found with sorbic acid.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited July 18
    PhilGeis said:
    Pharma - think useless as its too prone to pH (>7) and microbial esterases and it's a common "preservative" in so many of the recalls in US.  And it's not that hot when it's stable.
    GMCY or undecylenates? You're likely referring to GMCY... I always wondered why such a simple small ester shouldn't be digested right away. Regarding stability at pH>7: one shouldn't use such a pH when combining with anisic and levulinic acid. At least that concern is no issue.
    I never studied the LOI of recalls, good you mention it.
    Not long ago I stumbled upon caprylyl glyceryl ether (Velsan CGE). At least, that one is a more stable ether. Any insights to share about this one?
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited July 18
    Pharma - not familair with the Velsan ether.

    undecylenates - not much experience there.  Think you know i'm an old tradtional guy so had a lot of preservastives focused on fungi.  I do understand it's more of a fungistat than -cide.

    My biggest frustration is the great number of effectively useless combinations marketed as "broad spectrum", wide pH range , "nartural, blah blah: set up to mislead well-intentioned folks like domicanica.  
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @domicanica

    I have used Dermosoft 1388 in several formulations as a preservation component.  Sodium Levulinate and Sodium Anisate are essentially natural analogs of Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate.  It sounds as though you are scouring the Dr. Straetmans catalog for a solution?

    Do they work ... Yes.  But, you have to use the hurdle approach:

    (1)  pH < 6.0
    (2)  Chelating Agent
    (3)  Glycols and Preservative Boosters
    (4)  Packaging ... make sure the end user cannot dip their paws into the product packaging

    But, they are pricey.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @MarkBroussard that's exactly what I was doing, but I just don't have much faith in the information they've provided. i have a pH of ~5, i have my chelating agent and i'm using pump closures. i have 1388, GMCY and i know where to get 688 at repackager level, which is why i was wondering if i could use 688 and 1388 together...
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited July 19
    @domicanica:

    I would not recommend that combination, per se.  As I mentioned, if you look at the chemical structures of Sodium Levulinate and Sodium Anisate you will find that they are quite similar to sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate.  I am assuming you are trying to use a natural-derived presevation approach.

    If you look at the chemical structure of Honeysuckle Extracts you will find they are very close to parabens.

    Troy also offers a nature-derived Phenoxyethanol if your market will accept Phenoxyethanol.  If that is not acceptable, you might try coupling 1388 with Dehydroacetic Acid.

    An approach that might work for you would be:

    1388 + Dehydroacetic Acid + Pentylene Glycol + Caprylyl Glycol + Chelating Agent + Closed Packaging + pH<6.0 ... depending on the product format.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @MarkBroussard yes that's correct. My market is generally unaccepting of chemicals so I'm trying to find alternative solutions. From brief research I can see that honeysuckle extract is somewhat similar to parabens but is this effective on its own?

    I'll do some research on dehydroacetic and see if I can find it and any of the glycols in small quantities, thanks a lot.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    ...
    If you look at the chemical structure of Honeysuckle Extracts you will find they are very close to parabens.

    Troy also offers a nature-derived Phenoxyethanol if your market will accept Phenoxyethanol.  If that is not acceptable, you might try coupling 1388 with Dehydroacetic Acid...
    To my knowledge, there is no specific constituent in honeysuckle which makes it a preservative. It does work according to certain (mostly Japanese) publications though I'm a bit hesitant with all the scams around plant extracts. Honeysuckle contains a plethora of constituents, some like chlorogenic acid and iridoids are active against microbes but are also found in many other plants which do not offer enough bang to be suitable preservatives. AFAIK there is nothing in honeysuckle which remotely resembles parabens unless you regard any phenolic structure as close enough.

    Natural-derived phenoxyethanol? Seriously? I can't find anything from reliable resources. And even if; it's structure implies that it might exist in nature but only in trace amounts which would make extraction not economic enough to be actually done. My suspicion is that said 'natural-derived' version is either synthesised from renewable feedstock using traditional synthetic approaches or isn't phenoxyethanol at all but just clever marketing.

    Dehydroacetic acid has been reported as found in nature long after its initial synthesis. Allegedly, it's found in Solandra flowers which is quite weird... I suspect contamination followed by referencing to a publication nobody has actually read, let alone double-checked like that story around spinach. Commercial dehydroacetic acid is always synthetic. Sure, its main starting educt can be acetic acid (or mineral oil) flowed by several synthetic steps. IMHO this ingredient does not deserve anything in the direction of natural preservative. All it deserves is 'biodegradable'. But its INCI is so nice, blablaACETIC ACID, that sounds like apple cider vinegar. How can't you not love such an ingredient? Maybe marketing should invent better, less conspicuous names for preservatives or do a re-branding like with rapeseed oil (what a horrible name!) to canola oil.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @MarkBroussard yes that's correct. My market is generally unaccepting of chemicals so I'm trying to find alternative solutions. From brief research I can see that honeysuckle extract is somewhat similar to parabens but is this effective on its own?

    I'll do some research on dehydroacetic and see if I can find it and any of the glycols in small quantities, thanks a lot.
    @dominicana:

    That's what I thought.  No, I would not recommend using Honeysuckle extracts on its own, pair up with another preservative.  Here's some info on Honeysuckle extracts as preservatives www.campo-research.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/Personal-Care-Article-HoneySuckle-Barbara-Olioso.pdf ... Barbara and I collaborate on projects on occassion.

    If you are having to purchase from re=packers? ... then you might want to look at Benzyl Alcohol / Dehydroacetic Acid which is EcoCert.

    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Honysuckle extract?  Good grief.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    PhilGeis said:
    Pharma - not familair with the Velsan ether.

    undecylenates - not much experience there.  Think you know i'm an old tradtional guy so had a lot of preservastives focused on fungi.  I do understand it's more of a fungistat than -cide.

    My biggest frustration is the great number of effectively useless combinations marketed as "broad spectrum", wide pH range , "nartural, blah blah: set up to mislead well-intentioned folks like domicanica.  
    I've quite a bit of experience using undecylenate.  The main problem is not their effectiveness per se, but they really blow the viscosity of most emulsion, so you have to restrict usage to 0.3%.  I would classify them as more of a co-preservative or preservative booster.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Correction:  The natural Phenoxyethanol is from Tyger Scientific.  I've never used it since my client base generally cannot use phenoxyethanol as it is prohibited by several of their retailers.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Use phenoxyethanol instead of benzyl alcohol. It is milder, stronger for gram negative bacteria at will grow most in body wash and have less impact in viscosity than benzyl alcohol.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    PhilGeis said:
    I'd not use with sorbate.  No purpose with two organic acids and the benzoic acid/surfactant phenomenon is not found with sorbic acid.
    What is this benzoic acid/surfactant phenomenon? 

    If i us sodium benzoate+phenoxyethanol +0.2 EDTA in shampoo, What ratio would give best results? 
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    ...The main problem...they really blow the viscosity of most emulsion...
    Ugh... that seems to be a common issue with several alternative preservatives. Thanks for sharing.

    Regarding 'synthetic' vs.'natural' phenoxyethanol by Tyger: CAS # for both is the same = both are phenoxyethanol. Dunno why they are allowed to rename the chemical name of one into 'natural phenoxyethanol'. What do they mean by that? They further claim: 'The natural version of phenoxyethanol can be used in products in order to boast the fully natural status of the product as opposed to containing synthetic chemicals.' WTF...
    They even have a 'natural' caprylhydroxamic acid, 'natural' ethanesulfonic acid', and 'natural' carbon dioxide. Somebody shoot me, PLEASE!
    Usually, synthetic products (100% or at least most of their carbon skeletton) which are made from renewable resources instead of petroleum are termed bio-... like HERE  = may or may not occur in nature. Whereas the term 'natural' commonly refers to 'isolated as is from renewable feedstock' = obviously does occur in nature. Products which do exist in nature but were synthesised from whatever (petroleum and/or renewable feedstock) are termed 'natural identical'. I know, this is not an official standard nomenclature but is accepted on a broad basis. Some simply do like to fight over what 'natural' means and where it starts or ends. That's why one should use terms like 'renewable feedstock' instead.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Pharma:

    Regarding Tyger ... I've never used their products, am only aware that they were marketing a "natural" phenxoyethanol ... if you are curious enough, you might ask them some questions.

    I suspect that what they mean by natural is nature identical manufactured from renewable feedstocks.  But, since I am highly likely to never use their products, not a line of inquiry I have time to pursue. 
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Pharma - "natural" phenoxyethanol.   Please elaborate. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @PhilGeis - I think it's "natural" in that it doesn't come from a "supernatural" source so, you know, natural. 

  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited July 19
    Thanks Perry.  Now I see!!
    I emailed Tyger with the question.  Will let you know what they say.
  • thanks a lot for the guidance everyone. also thank you @PhilGeis for the reality check because sometimes i buy into the marketing hype and i'm beginning to see that the info is often inaccurate.

    i think i will try the sodium benzoate with benzyl alcohol or potassium sorbate and glycols. because i still have some dermosoft i'll also try that with the dehydroacetic acid and glycols as suggested. i'll also try phenoxyethanol and see how my skin handles it and determine which system i prefer.
  • suswang8suswang8 Member
    edited July 24
    Skinchakra is using 1388 in a recent lysolecithin-based formulation she posted about, and I'm 99% sure she does microbiology tests on all of these recipes.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Your emulsifier also has a big role in your preservative effectiveness. 

    Check this file.

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