Composition of materials (Montanov 202)

Hello guys,

I've recently came to an issue, where supplier did not provide  material compositions. When I asked for it, they said it's a proprietary and they don't have it or can't share it. My trainer from school (IPSC) told me, they must provide that to me, if I show that it's going to be used in a finished product. 
I'm a small producer, not even official yet. How do I get this info then? 
I did google searches and all, however no luck. SDS sheets .

This time, I'm struggling with Montanov 202. I cannot finish my label with ingredients list. Also, ICE Silicone from MakingCosmetics. I have no idea how to proceed. 
Any tips, ideas, please? 

Comments

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited June 19
    What does it say in the relevant section of the MSDS? In some cases, this will give you a range. Not always but worth a shot.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.

  • well the inci for Mont 202 is as follows:

    MONTANOV™ 202

    • Company:

      SEPPIC

    • INCI Name:

      Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside

  • And the other one is this:

    ICE SiliconeMakingCosmetics Inc.
    • INCI Name:
       Cetyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Polyacrylate (and) Polysorbate 80 (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) Dimethicone/Divinyldimethicone/Silsesquioxane Crosspolymer

  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 19
    It sounds like you are trying to make the label INCI?  If so, you have the information.  Is 'Material Composition' something different than what it is made of?


    Your supplier posts the ingredients....right on the opening page.  It is right after the letters "INCI Name"

  • PaprikPaprik Member
    Thank you guys @Microformulation and @Graillotion
    No problem with finding the INCI names, but the percentage of each component is the issue.
    They don't even provide the range, that would be good enough. 

    This a section 3 of SDS:


    Or how would do proceed with creating ingredient list without this kind of information? [And still comply with regulations?]
  • what country are you in?

  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 19
    If you are in the US... Let's use Montano 202 as an example...it contains 3 ingredients.  You do not list by inclusion of the individual ingredients, but as a whole.  Say you include 4% Mont 202,.... You place the flowing entry where 4% would fall into your formula: 

    Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside


    So as an example, if water was your number 1 ingredient, and Mont 202 at 4% was the second largest ingredient...it would be listed second, just like I wrote it.


    If you tried to divide the components out....your 'fragrance'....might have 120 ingredients.... :) 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 19
    The only reason it looks like some of the big MFG's are splitting out an emulsifier, like 165 or Mont 202....is because they are making their own from the individual ingredients....due to cost savings, and possible performance enhancements tailored to their products.
    If you are buying them ready made...you list them as the group they came in.

    When you see the word 'and' on an inci...that is a give-away that the product came as a combined ingredient.
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    I'm in NZ. I think we follow EU regulations in this matter.

    I know how to make an ingredient list, I just got surprised, that there are some ingredients, where they don't list individual input. So wanted to know how to deal with it. (For my study, I had to do IL, but they supply me with all info needed).

    Ok, I will list it as is and on the correct % place. 

    Thanks! :) 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 19
    Paprik said:
    I'm in NZ. I think we follow EU regulations in this matter.

    I know how to make an ingredient list, I just got surprised, that there are some ingredients, where they don't list individual input. So wanted to know how to deal with it. (For my study, I had to do IL, but they supply me with all info needed).

    Ok, I will list it as is and on the correct % place. 

    Thanks! :) 
    Yes...the purpose of the '(and)' on the INCI....is so you can copy and paste it....on your INCI. :) Hehehehe.....so leave those in.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    It is %30 Glucoside and %70 alcohols
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Paprik:

    If you contact Seppic directly and ask for a Compositional Analysis on Montanov 202, they will provide it to you.  As @Microformulation said, it will be in ranges for each of the component ingredients, but that will give you enough information if you require it for preparing your label.  Most companies will not provide you with the exact amounts of each component, but a range.  Sometimes this information is in the SDS, sometimes not.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    @Paprik:

    If you contact Seppic directly and ask for a Compositional Analysis on Montanov 202, they will provide it to you.  As @Microformulation said, it will be in ranges for each of the component ingredients, but that will give you enough information if you require it for preparing your label.  Most companies will not provide you with the exact amounts of each component, but a range.  Sometimes this information is in the SDS, sometimes not.
    Thank you mate! Appreciate it. 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    If you are in the US... Let's use Montano 202 as an example...it contains 3 ingredients.  You do not list by inclusion of the individual ingredients, but as a whole.  Say you include 4% Mont 202,.... You place the flowing entry where 4% would fall into your formula: 

    Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside


    So as an example, if water was your number 1 ingredient, and Mont 202 at 4% was the second largest ingredient...it would be listed second, just like I wrote it.


    If you tried to divide the components out....your 'fragrance'....might have 120 ingredients.... :) 
    This is not correct.  If you have 4% of a multi-component ingredient in the formula, you get the Compositional analysis ( let's say for Montanov 202, it works out to 2% AA, 1.5% BA and 0.5% AG ) and then you list those ingredients in compliance with the labeling regulations based on the % included in the formula.  Fragrances are only required to be listed as Fragrance per the regulations, but if you are selling in the EU, you need to call out the ingredients on the allergy list.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Also, I may be wrong, but in the Regulatory courses I have attended, the word "and" is generally not used in a properly written INCI Deck.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • If you are in the US... Let's use Montano 202 as an example...it contains 3 ingredients.  You do not list by inclusion of the individual ingredients, but as a whole.  Say you include 4% Mont 202,.... You place the flowing entry where 4% would fall into your formula: 

    Arachidyl Alcohol (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Arachidyl Glucoside


    So as an example, if water was your number 1 ingredient, and Mont 202 at 4% was the second largest ingredient...it would be listed second, just like I wrote it.


    If you tried to divide the components out....your 'fragrance'....might have 120 ingredients.... :) 
    This is not correct.  If you have 4% of a multi-component ingredient in the formula, you get the Compositional analysis ( let's say for Montanov 202, it works out to 2% AA, 1.5% BA and 0.5% AG ) and then you list those ingredients in compliance with the labeling regulations based on the % included in the formula.  Fragrances are only required to be listed as Fragrance per the regulations, but if you are selling in the EU, you need to call out the ingredients on the allergy list.
    Good to know!  I always hated for my emulsifier to be list so close to the top. 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Also, I may be wrong, but in the Regulatory courses I have attended, the word "and" is generally not used in a properly written INCI Deck.

    Correct, "(and)" is indicative of an improperly labeled product
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    I'm a bit surprised Seppic didn't provide the range for Montanov.

    @Graillotion - the same go with extracts and other ingredients as well, if you have multiple extracts contain say - propylene glycol, you break them as per % use and sum them up to 1 ingredient. Most reputable extract suppliers have the range in MSDS.
  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Graillotion
    @MarkBroussard
          Hey guys, so is this true ( I am curious primarily for the US) that for each ingredient you have to list according to percentage ) and I am talking emulsifiers and combination preservatives. Coz if it is true, that means we would need to get the individual percentages of all combination emulsifiers and preservatives- is that accurate to say?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Cinema:

    Correct ... you must list each ingredient included in the formula in descending order starting with the highest % ingredient working your way down, in descending rank order, to the lowest percentage ingredient.  However, when you hit "The One Percent Line" ... that is all ingredients that are included below 1% in the formula, you can order the ingredients below 1% in any order you want ... they do not have to be in descending rank order by percentage.

    For multi-component ingredients, which may include emulsifiers, preservatives, plant extracts, actives, etc., you need to break down the composition and label the component ingredients as though they were included as individual ingredients in compliance witht the descending order labeling regulation.

    The exception being Fragrances, which can be simply listed as "Fragrance".  However, if you are also selling in the EU, you have to list individually the ingredients in your Fragrance that are on the EU Allergens list which is why you will often see Linalool, Coumrin, Gerinol, etc. on many labels.

    These are the cosmetic labeling regulations stipulated by the FDA in the US.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • CinemaCinema Member
    Thanks @MarkBroussard , I knew the percentage rule overall but I wasn't aware of the rule regarding combination products, thanks
     
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Cinema said:
    Thanks @MarkBroussard , I knew the percentage rule overall but I wasn't aware of the rule regarding combination products, thanks
     
    I'm not a big fan of the 1% rule because it give companies an opportunity to make their formulas sound more "robust" then they may actually be.  For instance, I can take an ingredient loaded in the formula at 0.01% and put it as the first ingredient below the 1% line and well ahead of an ingredient(s) that may be included at 0.95%.

    I suspect the 1% rule will be changed sometime in the future ... there are politicians actively working on this to improve consumer transparency on cosmetic product labels.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    Thanks guys, I thought so, thus was chasing the % composition so I can do my IL correctly. I've emailed Seppic, let's see if they will share it.

    However, what if not? MakingCosmetics already told me, they won't give me the % composition for the ICE Silicone, therefore I cannot include it officially into my products. 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Paprik:

    MakingCosmetics is a re-packer of other manufacturer's products ... they don't make too many products on their own:

    Google the INCI:   Cetyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Polyacrylate (and) Polysorbate 80 (and) Glyceryl Stearate (and) Dimethicone/Divinyldimethicone/Silsesquioxane Crosspolymer

    It should pop-up in your Google search as to what manufacturers have a product with this INCI and you can write to them directly to get the Compositional Analysis.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
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