New Emulsifier or need for thickeners - help!!

I am new to the forum and an amateur formulator - however have been reading and learning and experimenting for the past 9 months now. My forte is naturally derived ( as much as possible) and herbal formulations, So I wanted to try to make a pourable/ pumpable lotion and for the same- tried out Cream maker fluid ( Inci name - Sorbitan laurate, polyglyceryl-4 laurate, dilauryl citrate ) for the same.
Basic formulation

OIls ( coconut, babassu, MCT and apricot kernel)- 12%
Aloe gel- 5%
DW- 72%
Glycerin -3 %
Cetyl alcohol- 0.5
Cream maker fluid- 3.5%
Vtamin E - 1%
Essential oils- 2%
Optiphen plus- 1%
 
           But my emulsion -although came together but separated quickly. The formulation guide is to use 1.5-2.5% cream maker fluid - but I used more than that. Then I added HEC at 0.5, increased cetyl alcohol to 2% and Cream maker fluid to 6%- and of course adjust water accordingly.  The rsults still the same but my lotion now had stringy texture ( thanks to HEC) and waxy feel ( large amount of emulsifier I guess). 
         I guess I do need a natural polymer if possible like konjac or alginate for my water phase and an oil thickener too- like some out there are sapogel, sucragel, dermofeel viscolid or bio Jelly- all new to me. 
          Thoughts from you experts ? And experiences with Cream maker fluid?

Comments

  • PaprikPaprik Member
    Hi, 

    could you maybe share a method? I have no experience with this one, but looking at a sample recipe from MakingCosmetics, they used 4% for 12% lipid and also thickener 3%. I don't think HEC is giving a stringy texture (especially at 0.5%), or at least I don't recall it from my experiments with it. 

    Also one more thing, in my opinion, the Essential oils input is too high. If it's a body lotion, stick to 1.5% maximum, for face 0.5%. Also check regulatory limits for individual oils. 

  • CinemaCinema Member
    @parik, thanks for the quick reply. So this was supposed to be a cold process but since I was to use cetyl alcohol( had to use some form of thickener -and i had this or stearic acid)- I made it a hot process. Heated oil and water phases separately. kept the preservative and EO till cool down phase. Used a stick blender to mix oil into water phase. Let it cool while intermittently mixing and then added the cool down ingredients. Second time, when I used the HEC- I hydrated it first with water phase- rest the same. 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 9
    As mentioned above....please describe the equipment used to make the emulsion.

    Are you set on the above listed emulsifier?  There are some very proven ones available to you.  The one pasted below....is essentially bullet proof, and Widely used:

    CreamMaker® BLEND-EMF-EMBL-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

    And yes...the EO's will scent the product at .5%, unless you were trying to make a mosquito repellent.



  • CinemaCinema Member
    @ paprik- what do you mean by regulatory limits for oils?

  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Graillotion- thanks for the input but was trying to stay away from PEG compounds. I have made good lotions/ face creams with ritamulse, Gel maker NAT, Olivem 900, BTMS 25 even E wax in the past- but my lotions always are more in the consistency of creamy texture- like good for tubes but likely not thin enough for a bottle- this emulsifier claimed to be excellent for thin lotions and milks- and hence I went with it. 
  • Usually....too much viscosity means....too much emulsifier / thickeners.  In your case....probably too much emulsifier.

    Have you looked at Montanov L or 202?  (I think meets the natural standard you are looking for.  Should be co-emulsified with GSC.)


  • Regarding limits on EO's....

    Maybe take a look at this:

    https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU

    Some EO's are NOT well tolerated on skin.
  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Grailotion, so I was looking up these new ingredients and Montanov L looks really great ( and cheaper than 202)- maybe next to try if all else fails. What is CSC btw?
  • CinemaCinema Member
    Regarding limits on EO's....

    Maybe take a look at this:

    https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU

    Some EO's are NOT well tolerated on skin.
    Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment
  • Cinema said:

    Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment
    GSC is this:

    Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

    It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov's.  Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own....they all say that...and usually this is not a reality.  (As I can attest.)
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 9
    Don't overlook M 202.  I make a face cream with it....Heaven in a jar.
    I think LC has if for a lot less.

    But I think easier to make thinner products with L....as it does not thicken as well as 202.

  • CinemaCinema Member
    Don't overlook M 202.  I make a face cream with it....Heaven in a jar.
    I think LC has if for a lot less.

    But I think easier to make thinner products with L....as it does not thicken as well as 202.

    Cinema said:

    Got it thanks, will do. What is CSC btw as you mentioned in the previous comment
    GSC is this:

    Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)

    It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov's.  Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own....they all say that...and usually this is not a reality.  (As I can attest.)

    Thanks for the info. Done and done- will try it for sure.
    Tagging a few of the chemists on this forum to see if anyone has used Cream maker fluid before and has any suggestions? @Perry @Bobzchemist
  • As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?
  • CinemaCinema Member
    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?
    I am using Purador's organic
    aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 10
    Cinema said:
    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?
    I am using Purador's organic
    aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?
    Ahh....starting to give us facts we can use ....
    If it is the one I found on the net....it is loaded with crap...including cationic ingredients...which would cause some incompatabilities.

    Make the formula without the Aloe gel...and I think all problems will .... POOF!

  • BTW....if you must formulate with aloe....MAKE your OWN!

    https://www.makeyourown.buzz/aloe-vera-leaf-powder-100x/

    Aloe brings numerous problems to formulating....find another claim ingredient.
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    I think TEGO® Care LTP don't tolerate E'lyte well, have you try knock Aloe gel out yet?
  • CinemaCinema Member
    Cinema said:
    As natural as possible.. What is aloe gel made of?
    I am using Purador's organic
    aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?
    Ahh....starting to give us facts we can use ....
    If it is the one I found on the net....it is loaded with crap...including cationic ingredients...which would cause some incompatabilities.

    Make the formula without the Aloe gel...and I think all problems will .... POOF!

    OK sounds good-will try 
  • CinemaCinema Member
    @ Graillotion- I did not know you could make your own aloe gel- will def try.
    I thought only aloe juice caused issued- aloe gel never gave me problems before
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 10
    Aloe gel...is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

    Look at the product you were using....Aloe juice was the first ingredient...then thickeners.


  • CinemaCinema Member
    Aloe gel...is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

    Look at the product you were using....Aloe juice was the first ingredient...then thickeners.


    I clicked on the link but only got a link to aloe leaf powder buying site- is there a place where I can learn how to make my own aloe gel
    Also @ Pattsi- thanks I just realized Tego Care LTP is the other name for the Cream maker fluid- and I guess I am getting close to thinking the aloe might be the problem
  • CinemaCinema Member
    Thank you all ... I am hopeful that I don't have to give up on my new found emulsifier!! - Excited for another trial batch tomorrow then!!
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 10
    Cinema said:
    @ Graillotion- I did not know you could make your own aloe gel- will def try.
    I thought only aloe juice caused issued- aloe gel never gave me problems before

    As Pattsi said...the Tego care LTP you chose...is not a good choice for Aloe (he said Electrolytes....same, same).  Anytime you choose to use a claim ingredient like aloe...it will dictate what can emulsify it.

    In this case...you did the double whammy...with adding a cationic solution and a strong electrolyte.

    Lose the Aloe gel...You tried adding a finished formula...to your formula....usually not a good mix.

    Even if you choose to use aloe powder....you might need to choose an emulsifier that plays well with electrolytes.
  • Here are some additional instructions that go with the emulsifier you chose:

    • In cold processed formulations TEGO® Care LTP should be combined with polymeric stabilizers/thickeners in order to adjust the viscosity and the stability profile of the emulsions. For body lotions combinations of 0.1 – 0.3 % TEGO® Carbomer 141 or
    TEGO® Carbomer 140 with Xanthan Gum proved to be most effective. For the preparation of sprayable emulsions, a combination of TEGO® Carbomer 141 and TEGO® Carbomer 341 ER (Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylates Crosspolymer) proved to be most effective.

    • In hot processed creams TEGO® Care LTP is preferably combined with consistency enhancers such as
    TEGIN® M Pellets (Glyceryl Stearate) and TEGO® Alkanol 18 (Stearyl Alcohol). Addition of small amounts of TEGO® Carbomer 134 (0.1 – 0.2 %) results in an improved freeze stability and in improved maintenance of the cream-like consistency at temperatures above 40°C.

  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Graillotion- thanks for going above and beyond to help me with all this - and giving me so much to read- I love reading up on ingredients. 
  • CinemaCinema Member
    I love the line- adding a finished product to your product- not a good idea- That's a keeper! Don't know what I was thinking!!
  • Cinema said:
    Aloe gel...is only aloe juice that has been thickened.

    Look at the product you were using....Aloe juice was the first ingredient...then thickeners.


    where I can learn how to make my own aloe gel

    In formula...you do not thicken the individual components...you thicken the entire formula....so if you still chose to use aloe juice....it's viscosity is irrelevant.  You thicken the FINISHED product to the viscosity you desire, with the ingredients you desire....ie... cetyl alcohol, stearic acid, any polymeric...(again super careful here...as most of those hate Aloe)...etc.  (not necessarily what I would choose...just what it sounds like you might have.)

    Bottom line...you thicken the finished product...not the individual ingredients.  Aloe gel...is only pre-thickened aloe juice.
  • Here are some additional instructions that go with the emulsifier you chose:

    • In cold processed formulations TEGO® Care LTP should be combined with polymeric stabilizers/thickeners in order to adjust the viscosity and the stability profile of the emulsions. For body lotions combinations of 0.1 – 0.3 % TEGO® Carbomer 141 or
    TEGO® Carbomer 140 with Xanthan Gum proved to be most effective. For the preparation of sprayable emulsions, a combination of TEGO® Carbomer 141 and TEGO® Carbomer 341 ER (Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylates Crosspolymer) proved to be most effective.

    • In hot processed creams TEGO® Care LTP is preferably combined with consistency enhancers such as
    TEGIN® M Pellets (Glyceryl Stearate) and TEGO® Alkanol 18 (Stearyl Alcohol). Addition of small amounts of TEGO® Carbomer 134 (0.1 – 0.2 %) results in an improved freeze stability and in improved maintenance of the cream-like consistency at temperatures above 40°C.

    One more learning opportunity... Here is a line from the re-packer trying to sell you this product:

    • Easy-to-handle liquid emulsifier for making cold emulsions without the need of a co-emulsifier
    The two paragraphs above....are from the mfg...stating very boldly, for anyone wanting to read it.... NOT STABLE ALL BY ITSELF. (my paraphrase)  (LMAO)

    The less you believe in the product descriptions the re-packers use....the better formulator you will become.  Their only goal...is to sell you something (and sometimes...to sell you the fixes...once they have you on the hook).  Search any INCI on any reputable cream/lotion...and you will always see the stabilizers, and co-emulsifiers, no matter what emulsifier they started with.  Even the 'bullet proof' one I recommended at the beginning of the thread....we typically will support it.
  • CinemaCinema Member
    Thanks @Graillotion for the tips above and thanks to all there as well.

  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Graillotion
    @Pattsi
    @nagarayeva001
           Had to update you all. Made a fresh batch today after eliminating aloe vera and success- still a little thick but pourable- and has been stable for 4 hours- looks good and will likely remain good. Thank you all for the help!!
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    Cream maker fluid 3.5% - might be bit too high.

    some basic free formulations

    Light O/W Collagen Boosting Lotion Cold Processing

    A
    TEGO® Care LTP  Sorbitan Laurate, Polyglyceryl-4 Laurate, Dilauryl Citrate 1.5
    TEGO® Derm CBS PPG-3 Myristyl Ether; Salicyloyl Phytosphingosine 10.0
    TEGOSOFT® OP Ethylhexyl Palmitate 4.6
    TEGO® Carbomer 140 Carbomer 0.15
    TEGO® Carbomer 141 Carbomer 0.15
    Xanthan Gum 0.1
    B
    Glycerin 3.0
    Water 80.5
    C
    Sodium Hydroxide (10 % in water) qs
    D
    Preservative, Parfum qs

    Cold Processed PEG-Free O/W Lotion (Without Homogenisation)


    A
    TEGO® Care LTP Sorbitan Laurate, Polyglyceryl-4 Laurate, Dilauryl Citrate 1.5
    TEGOSOFT® OP Ethylhexyl Palmitate 9.5
    Mineral Oil (30 mPas) 9.0
    B
    TEGO® Carbomer 140 Carbomer 0.1
    TEGO® Carbomer 141 Carbomer 0.1
    Xanthan Gum 0.1
    TEGOSOFT® OP Ethylhexyl Palmitate 1.2
    C
    Water, demineralized 74.7
    Glycerin 3.0
    E
    Microcare SR 9170 Dipropylene Glycol; Methylparaben;Ethylparaben;Aqua;Methylisothiazolinone 0.8


    Maybe you can try 1.5 + lil natural gum/thickener you like if it's can emulsify and reach your desired viscosity. 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 11
    One more note....if you use more emulsifier than you actually need...you will often get a product that 'soaps'.  It will also be more expensive than it needs to be...and possibly the feel will be diminished.   And the obvious....more thick than you want....(this does not hold true with all emulsifiers...as some do very little thickening.  Increased viscosity and emulsification...are not synonyms.)
  • CinemaCinema Member
    edited June 11
    @Pattsi Thanks and is it ok if I tag you or @Graillotion for any future troubleshooting ?
  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Graillotion- soaping I encountered early on and figured out how to overcome- not that it can't happen again. But yeah I have mostly had higher viscosity and am usually trying ways to bring it down.I also had a question- what if there is an ingredient that manufacturers only ship as sample to businesses but I want to try- is there a way to ask around?
  • Cinema said:
    @Graillotion- soaping I encountered early on and figured out how to overcome- not that it can't happen again. But yeah I have mostly had higher viscosity and am usually trying ways to bring it down.I also had a question- what if there is an ingredient that manufacturers only ship as sample to businesses but I want to try- is there a way to ask around?
    I assume you are not a business..... Cuz most of us get our samples from ULProspector, but it is virtually impossible to get an account without being an established business.  The industry is fundamentally based on free samples....I have a room full of them.  So other than getting a ULP account...the only other way I know of....is going directly to their website and asking.  I suppose one other way...(and I have never been....cus Covid made an appearance)...would be attend an industry trade show.....guessing lots of samples there.

    HOWEVER... I have long ago realized... If you can not find it at your re-packers....what is the point of getting the sample???  Let's say you love it....then how are you going to get it???  And you will be left with a feeling of....Oh my product could have been sooooo good, if I just could have included ingredient X.

    Maybe state what product you wanted to sample...and we can tell you what products are similar...that might be available from a re-packer.  There is almost always a dupe or sub out there somewhere.  Also...the re-packers like to re-name things...and some of us might know who has it...under what name.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    All you have is Google the INCI if you are curious about an ingredient sold by a repacker that has given the product their own Repacker Trade Name.  In some cases, the repackers will also slightly change the INCI on their website, but if you also look at the C of A, you can then pretty much figure out who is the original manufacturer of the ingredient.

    I don't know exactl what good this does you if you are highly unlikely to ever purchas MOQ from the manufacturer.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Graillotion @MarkBroussard
    Interesting that you guys answer just at the same time. Funny thing, I actually had a chat today while on a manufacturer's site- the lady was real nice and said that she will check with her manufacturers and see if they would get a sample to an individual. All good, she took my contact info etc and I even offered that I can pay for the sample too....... till she told me the smallest batch of sample they would give out is 25Kgs!!!!   Yikes- I said absolutely no!!! Anyways then I asked as to when do they think their product will be in stores- apparently has been tested and all and on their site since 2018= and she said real soon hopefully!! So , that was fun :D 
  • I sent you a PM...if you are new to the forum....You have an INBOX tab at the top of the page.
  • CinemaCinema Member
    thanks

  • PattsiPattsi Member
    sure you can tag me if I can be any of help, but I'm a marketer so my formulating skill is on basic level tho.
    For ingredients supplier(s) you can ask around in here, there's another option -    


  • CinemaCinema Member
    @Pattsi thanks  :)
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