Hyaluronidase

Has anyone ever formulated any eye contour product using Hyaluronidase?

 I have developed a high-end eye gelly serum and I am missing the final ingredient (Hyaluronidase) as from what I see the company that produces it has currently stopped its production and won't supply it to me. They even do not bother replying back to my messages.

I am looking to buy it through Sigma Aldrich or Carbosynth, but I have no idea which version to choose from, they are all very damn expensive as well with prices like $280 per gram.

I want to use Hyaluronidase in order to drastically reduce the eye bags in 100% of the people who will use it. I have used all known actives that exist in the global market but none has 100% efficacy.

 I have also thought to use actives that work against water retention, however, those are mainly targeted to work on body applications and not on eye area, there is always the fear of skin irritation, something that I need to avoid.

Any ideas?

Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Hyaluronidase:
    - Is a prescription drug
    - Is indicated for dissolving hyaluronic acid (if too much has been injected or at the wrong place), for certain types of eye surgery, and against certain types of inflammatory diseases and pleura and joint effusions
    - Only works by injection
    - Requires cold storage
    - Will degrade in a serum and even if not, will not work topically
    - Currently only available with 150 I.E. and 300 I.E., 1'500 I.E. is out of stock in Europe
    - Doesn't work with 100% efficacy, especially not against eye bags. Scalpel, needle and thread would be your best choice... however, these are very difficult to dissolve in a serum :p .
  • Pharma said:
    Hyaluronidase:
    - Is a prescription drug
    - Is indicated for dissolving hyaluronic acid (if too much has been injected or at the wrong place), for certain types of eye surgery, and against certain types of inflammatory diseases and pleura and joint effusions
    - Only works by injection
    - Requires cold storage
    - Will degrade in a serum and even if not, will not work topically
    - Currently only available with 150 I.E. and 300 I.E., 1'500 I.E. is out of stock in Europe
    - Doesn't work with 100% efficacy, especially not against eye bags. Scalpel, needle and thread would be your best choice... however, these are very difficult to dissolve in a serum :p .
    I wouldn't be so sure that it works only by injection, you should know better than that by now. There are penetration enhancers, liposomes etc that someone can deploy in order to achieve the result. When it arrives in my hands it will not need cold storage as I will dissolve and incorporate it into my testing product which is ready and stable. Oh yeah I bought it already for testing purposes and will pair it with other actives against water retention. Will keep the post updated with my results.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Whatever...
    If you know everything better, why do you even bother asking?
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    Ι didn't say I know everything better, I just know that technology and chemistry have been advancing all the time and new forms of penetration enhancing materials are being discovered and deployed constantly and what you claim of limited penetration actually is not true. If it was true then companies of actives would be out of business since their actives would be difficult to penetrate the skin. I never asked of how to penetrate the skin and deliver a substance to a site so as to exert its biological activity, my original question is about Hyaluronidase and if anyone has had any prior experience with it. Being a prescription drug as you say doesn't mean anything to me as I can buy whatever I like/need, legally, and use it on my own free will, being a pharmacist with a private pharmacy helps a great deal in order to buy and experiment with expensive substances. Also, what you type is wrong, I have found it on various concentrations per mg, on Sigma Aldrich and from what I see the only limitation is  the money needed to buy it and finally I already have a second formula, provided by one of my suppliers from North America, that deploys Perfluorocarbons as well in combination with Hyaluronidase, I happen to have already a mix of Perfluorocarbons named FiFlow BTX....like I said I am not your average pharmacist...have a nice day...
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    Dreamer77 said:
     use it on my own free will, 
    What?
    Hyaluronidases are labeled in the European Union for the following indications: (1) as adjuvant therapy in subcutaneous drug administration, (2) to increase penetration of a local anesthetic, (3) to promote the reabsorption of contrast medium in urology, and (4) to promote reabsorption of subcutaneous hematomas. Off-label prescriptions are allowed, informed consent of the patient is required, and the related prescriptions (specifying the indication) must be reported in a medical record. In addition, the pharmacist must send a copy of the off-label prescription to the local health office and then to the Public Health Department.
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    Yes you are absolutely right on that and cannot disagree on that matter with you. BUT It's going to be used for cosmetic application though through a topical preparation and not as a drug (injectable) which makes it a total different thing in the end. The main difference between injectables and ointments is that in the first case the result is difficult to reverse while with topical application once you stop usage things are being reversed easily. And that's what Hyaluronidase is being deployed for in the end, to correct the effects provoked by excessive dosage of injectable hyaluronic acid (filler). However, we wil be applying it topically only and to correct accumulation of hyaluronic acid that causes water retention that leads to eye bags. There will be no injectables whatsoever. If we succeed I will pass it to a more professional level and create an official product which will be unique and one of its kind, there's no similar product found at global level, I have already controlled that as well, if I could be able to find one I would buy it and sell it in my turn.  From your way of writing I presume that you are in the UK. In UK things must be pretty "tight" legislation-wise and experimentation must be a very difficult thing in the end. Over here things are quite different, if you go and do things strictly by the book it won't get you far, same as in UK I believe, however things are being done by the book but taking shortcuts (windows in legislation) here and there. I forgot to mention that apart from being a pharmacist, I am also a certified technician (by the state) for cosmetics production. In the entire country there are over 2,500 cosmetic labs and relative companies out if which only a dozen operate with GMP and are up to current legislation, so go figure about books, registries, local health authorities and public health administration. However, if you keep low profile like I do and know the right people things are done way easier and legally at the same time. I believe you catch my "drift"....
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    Pattsi said:
    Dreamer77 said:
     use it on my own free will, 
    What?
    Hyaluronidases are labeled in the European Union for the following indications: (1) as adjuvant therapy in subcutaneous drug administration, (2) to increase penetration of a local anesthetic, (3) to promote the reabsorption of contrast medium in urology, and (4) to promote reabsorption of subcutaneous hematomas. Off-label prescriptions are allowed, informed consent of the patient is required, and the related prescriptions (specifying the indication) must be reported in a medical record. In addition, the pharmacist must send a copy of the off-label prescription to the local health office and then to the Public Health Department.
    The mistake you are making is that you confuse drugs with cosmetics....here we talk about cosmetics.... If I succeed you will know, you still haven't replied to my message, my formula is ready and its only a matter of time before I start producing the first large batches of 2,000 jars. Each batch will be doubled up on every turn as the 2,000 jars will be sold in less than a week with advertising. Unofficial In-vivo testing has been done like you have seen already, no side effects,no skin irritation etc. and official clinical evaluation will take place at a university in Italy and everything will be completed by the end of this summer, the anecdotal evidence will become official proof of result, only money for the clinical trials is needed,  then I will invade literally the entire EU market with all social media advertising it, Facebook Instagram and all. The formula was envisioned to have a certain result of usage and it does so with great success, the end result is to humiliate every expensive face moisturiser that costs up to $1000 per jar. I have completed the formula with $0 expense on advertising...go figure what sales are going to be created when I spend $10,000 for a month of advertising and moreover when I do these 1 minute video ads on YouTube...did I mention that it starts working in only 5 minutes? And lastly, the women who use it do not stop doing so, as they know that this kind of result they will not get it from whatever else they try on their skin. The main target group is 40+ with normal to dry skin but it can be used from all skin types 25-90yrs old...beat that if you can with a single product.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Dreamer77 said:
    ...Sigma Aldrich...
    These are research chemicals and not to be used in/on humans.
    I don't know in which country you live but AFAIK in most if not all EU/EFTA countries, a product which contains a prescription drug becomes a prescription drug unless you can proof that the product is inactive and safe if topically applied (which falls in the responsibility of the manufacturer) and is in accordance with cosmetic regulations or the amount contained falls within the OTC range (if that exists) and you register it as drug (in which case you'd have to use pharmacopoeia grade).
    Given that an enzyme will, even if suspended in perfluorocarbons, degrade quite fast and will not penetrate skin to an effective amount, it actually could be okay*. In my country, it wouldn't be for several reasons.
    Depending on where you live, there are workarounds (though I despise all of these):
    - Knowing the right person
    - Bribing the right person
    - Hiring someone as responsible pharmacist and either see that he doesn't know or gets enough salary so he doesn't care and use him as scapegoat in case of
    - Living far away enough to not being bothered with inspections
    - Pharmacist is a liberal profession = laws and regulations are for pussies

    *If you think you can stabilise it and get it to penetrate skin, then you must live in a wonderful country where people can store their vaccines and biologicals at room temperature (not talking about igloos) and don't have to inject insulin because they can apply it topically.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    There are only a dozen facilities in the US that practice cGMP? I have to disagree.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Pharma said:
    - Pharmacist is a liberal profession = laws and regulations are for pussies

    🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    I haven't used hyaluronidases so can't offer formulating advice. But I am curious. 

    If this product (which would be an illegal drug in the US) works as well as suggested, why hasn't a big pharmaceutical corporation already developed it? Why isn't something with this technology already out on the market? How will you protect the IP?

    Also, how is this formula different than the other revolutionary skin product you previously talked about?
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Perry said:
    I haven't used hyaluronidases so can't offer formulating advice. But I am curious. 

    If this product (which would be an illegal drug in the US) works as well as suggested, why hasn't a big pharmaceutical corporation already developed it? Why isn't something with this technology already out on the market? How will you protect the IP?

    Also, how is this formula different than the other revolutionary skin product you previously talked about?
    Yes, I was actually wondering the same thing as @Perry...I realized after reading your posts on this current discussion that they sounded very familiar and remembered a previous discussion where you talked about a product claiming it will be the best product ever made, in so many words...I guess I'm a little concerned about credibility, particularly when taking your advice and trusting that the information you give is accurate...I am in no way trying to be rude or snarky or anything like that...I just want to make sure I can trust your feedback when some of the claims you have made seem a bit far fetched...🤷‍♀️
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    @Dreamer77
    Sorry I didn't reply to your message because products we sell have to have IP under our company's name, it seems you were not willing to let go of it and you've already put it on sale, you said 10,000+ jars right? if I put it under our brand it will only be a dupe of yours right? 

    Your hyaluronidases eye serum - I am not interested, seems you may / might not understand eye bags pathophysiology thoroughly - please do correct me if I'm wrong.  
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member

    Patsi check your messages.

    Perry ,I had the same question myself, apparently the company producing the active containing Hyaluronidase have decided to develop their own line of products. Initially they have had it under official INCI listing and were selling it in the entire planet, I believe that they have decided to keep exclusivity and move on their own towards this end.

    Also, the Hyaluronidase serum is simpler to make but more dangerous compared to a skin moisturiser. You see, Hyaluronidase degrades the hyaluronic acid and this means that it can cause skin dryness and sagging if applied in the wrong manner or site,  meanwhile my skin formula has already been tested and it has no side effects even if its being used excessively by certain psychotic clients of mine.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited May 4
    @Dreamer77 - I guess what I'm asking is if the ingredient works as well as you've described, why hasn't P&G or L'Oreal or one of those gigantic companies who already have the marketing skills & brands using the technology?  Anyone can buy the ingredient and incorporate it into the formula.

    And these big companies have innovation teams dedicated specifically to adapting promising technologies to beauty products.  Why haven't they?

    The only reasons I can think of (maybe you have more) is...

    1. They tried it and it didn't work
    2. They tried it and other technologies were better
    3. They never tried it - (unlikely since big companies try anything promising)

    What am I missing?
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    I don't really know to be honest.

    They had produced it alright, it was produced in Spain up until 2020. It was distributed to the entire world.

    In North America a cosmetics company incorporated it into another formula naming it Perfect Eyes along with some other high end actives that are still in circulation. I have already tried all of them separately and all are quite good actually, this one with the Hyaluronidase is the one that I am missing.

    The only reason that I can think of is the one that I have stated above, they are keeping it for themselves as they have decided to start their own patented line of high end products. I see no reason of why it shouldn't work in the end. By the moment they went into "trouble" formulating the final product, registering it for distribution all around the world and advertising it this all sums up to a product that really must be working. The even performed their own clinical trials with impressive results.

    Another reason that I could think of why giants like L'Oréal P&G wouldn't bother is because its something very specialised and it targets only a specific thing, to minimise the eye bags and that's all about it, it doesn't have any other particular use. 
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    Perry said:
    @Dreamer77 - I guess what I'm asking is if the ingredient works as well as you've described, why hasn't P&G or L'Oreal or one of those gigantic companies who already have the marketing skills & brands using the technology?  Anyone can buy the ingredient and incorporate it into the formula.

    And these big companies have innovation teams dedicated specifically to adapting promising technologies to beauty products.  Why haven't they?

    The only reasons I can think of (maybe you have more) is...

    1. They tried it and it didn't work
    2. They tried it and other technologies were better
    3. They never tried it - (unlikely since big companies try anything promising)

    What am I missing?
    Try to buy it from the link you have posted, contact them and see what reply you will get. Seriously don't you think that I had already passed through that channel before I posted here? 
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    Pharma said:
    Dreamer77 said:
    ...Sigma Aldrich...
    These are research chemicals and not to be used in/on humans.
    I don't know in which country you live but AFAIK in most if not all EU/EFTA countries, a product which contains a prescription drug becomes a prescription drug unless you can proof that the product is inactive and safe if topically applied (which falls in the responsibility of the manufacturer) and is in accordance with cosmetic regulations or the amount contained falls within the OTC range (if that exists) and you register it as drug (in which case you'd have to use pharmacopoeia grade).
    Given that an enzyme will, even if suspended in perfluorocarbons, degrade quite fast and will not penetrate skin to an effective amount, it actually could be okay*. In my country, it wouldn't be for several reasons.
    Depending on where you live, there are workarounds (though I despise all of these):
    - Knowing the right person
    - Bribing the right person
    - Hiring someone as responsible pharmacist and either see that he doesn't know or gets enough salary so he doesn't care and use him as scapegoat in case of
    - Living far away enough to not being bothered with inspections
    - Pharmacist is a liberal profession = laws and regulations are for pussies

    *If you think you can stabilise it and get it to penetrate skin, then you must live in a wonderful country where people can store their vaccines and biologicals at room temperature (not talking about igloos) and don't have to inject insulin because they can apply it topically.

    So, in other words, those companies that actually formulate hyaluronidase-containing solutions for injectable use, for correcting the excessive hyaluronic acid injectable treatment done from plastic surgeons and dermatologists, where are they buying it from since there is no actual producer of the raw material? Do they meditate asking Santa Clause to bring it during the Christmas holidays?
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Dreamer77 said:

    So, in other words, those companies that actually formulate hyaluronidase-containing solutions for injectable use, for correcting the excessive hyaluronic acid injectable treatment done from plastic surgeons and dermatologists, where are they buying it from since there is no actual producer of the raw material? Do they meditate asking Santa Clause to bring it during the Christmas holidays?
    As I mentioned in the beginning: Hylase is available in the strength 150 IE and 300 IE which, at least for plastic surgeons, isn't enough because they need 1500 IE. And yes, they currently have no other option as to pray to whomever they pray to and hope that their product will soon be back in stock. Why do I know? Because I tried to organise it for the beauty clinic nearby just two weeks ago.
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    Pharma said:
    Dreamer77 said:

    So, in other words, those companies that actually formulate hyaluronidase-containing solutions for injectable use, for correcting the excessive hyaluronic acid injectable treatment done from plastic surgeons and dermatologists, where are they buying it from since there is no actual producer of the raw material? Do they meditate asking Santa Clause to bring it during the Christmas holidays?
    As I mentioned in the beginning: Hylase is available in the strength 150 IE and 300 IE which, at least for plastic surgeons, isn't enough because they need 1500 IE. And yes, they currently have no other option as to pray to whomever they pray to and hope that their product will soon be back in stock. Why do I know? Because I tried to organise it for the beauty clinic nearby just two weeks ago.
    So my contact was right in the first place, he said that this company Proteos Biotech was not able to cover the need of the product, the product was working, it had 3,000 units per ml. They somehow must have a production problem with it and decided to keep it for themselves, like my contact suggested, they must be developing their own line of products with it and with the other actives they got. So where are we now? Bottom line none of you has had any prior and real contact, even at experimental level, with Hyaluronidase, just a theoretical one regarding legislation. Getting a fresh batch of phospholipids from Lucas Meyer today, will create liposomes for my new experimental Hyaluronidase babies :)
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