Should powdered Hydrolyzed Silk have a strong odor?

abieroseabierose Member
in Formulating
I recently purchased some more hydrolyzed silk powder and noticed it has a very noticeable stale smelling  odor that unfortunately is noticeable in the end product (at least by me). Has anyone else experienced this? I have heard that liquid silk can smell fishy but I've never noticed a strong odor from the powdered form. Just wondering if this is normal or if I got a bad batch. I used it in a lotion that is fragranced and I can definitely smell a musty, stale odor on my skin after applying the lotion.
Thanks in advance for any feedback or advice!

iNCI: Hydrolyzed Silk (Silk Peptides) Powder
Supplier: Essential Wholesale 

Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Depends on the manufacturing process. If it's yellow to brown, it's probably chemically hydrolysed and smells of soup/bouillon. If it's white, it's more likely enzymatically hydrolysed. In which case it starts to have a distinct smell only if it's so heavily hydrolysed that there's an increasing amount of single amino acids. 'Clean' enzymatically processed polypeptides shouldn't have any (or only a negligible) smell.
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Pharma said:
    Depends on the manufacturing process. If it's yellow to brown, it's probably chemically hydrolysed and smells of soup/bouillon. If it's white, it's more likely enzymatically hydrolysed. In which case it starts to have a distinct smell only if it's so heavily hydrolysed that there's an increasing amount of single amino acids. 'Clean' enzymatically processed polypeptides shouldn't have any (or only a negligible) smell.
    Hmm...yes it is slightly off-white and the smell could maybe be described as bouillon...really stale, dusty bouillon...what is the typical manufacturing process? Is it more difficult to find "clean" enzymatically processed polypeptide? Is there a standard?
    Thanks again for your feedback! You are definitely a wealth of knowledge. I have learned a lot from your feedback on other posts 😀
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited March 2021
    My suggestion....I have been down that road....make it with and without....see if you can feel a difference. :)  If not...leave it out.  If not...and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%...it shouldn't stink up the product...and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.) :) 

    (ohh...and my new products do not include it...)



  • RedCoastRedCoast Member
    edited March 2021
    If the smell is too bothersome, try a plain amino acid blend like the Prodew series. You can find other plain blends from some repackers.

    I've tried a plant-based peptide (soy) once. I couldn't stand the odor, so I never used it again. Odors for natural/plant-based peptides are quite common! (And many other non-deodorized plant oils and butters for that matter!)
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Graillotion said:
    My suggestion....I have been down that road....make it with and without....see if you can feel a difference. :)  If not...leave it out.  If not...and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%...it shouldn't stink up the product...and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.) :) 

    (ohh...and my new products do not include it...)



    Great suggesting to use it at 1%...I used it at 3% in the lotion with the odor coming through. To be honest I assumed it would be more beneficial as label appeal more than anything...same with the 2% Panthenol 😆 I had actually stopped using both of these ingredients some time ago but decided to reintroduce them into this formula because I took out the colloidal oatmeal...the oatmeal was, as you very well know, too difficult to keep preserved and without an effective enough preservative system in place for it I didn't feel comfortable using it 🤷‍♀️

    Do you have any suggestions or opinions on other similar ingredients that are effective and have label appeal? I have been using Allantoin a lot lately and I have an embarrassing amount of different hydrolyzed proteins and extracts and oils...

    Thank you so much for the feedback!
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited March 2021
    abierose said:
    My suggestion....I have been down that road....make it with and without....see if you can feel a difference. :)  If not...leave it out.  If not...and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%...it shouldn't stink up the product...and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.) :) 

    (ohh...and my new products do not include it...)



    Great suggesting to use it at 1%...
    OMG...you badly misread my statement... That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

    And ummh....B5 level...way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

    Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well... it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water....Not formula....WATER.  Hence....in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent...aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

    The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.  :) 

    Hehehe....sorry I use those as part of my marketing....(What my products DON'T contain.)

    I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support...so maybe look at an oil high in GLA....or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

    Keep in mind....if you use silk...I believe it can no longer be considered....Vegan.



  • abieroseabierose Member
    RedCoast said:
    If the smell is too bothersome, try a plain amino acid blend like the Prodew series. You can find other plain blends from some repackers.

    I've tried a plant-based peptide (soy) once. I couldn't stand the odor, so I never used it again. Odors for natural/plant-based peptides are quite common! (And many other non-deodorized plant oils and butters for that matter!)
    I'll look into the Prodew Series. Thank you!

    And I agree, there are a LOT of other such ingredients that have strong, and often times off-putting odors...I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters 🤭
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    abierose said:
    I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters 🤭
    Butters and scent...directly correlate to level of cleanliness and refinement.  Want any butter you can dream about...without the scent.... Look at the refined Danish butters sold at MYO... In a class by themselves.
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Graillotion said:
    abierose said:
    My suggestion....I have been down that road....make it with and without....see if you can feel a difference. :)  If not...leave it out.  If not...and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%...it shouldn't stink up the product...and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.) :) 

    (ohh...and my new products do not include it...)



    Great suggesting to use it at 1%...
    OMG...you badly misread my statement... That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

    And ummh....B5 level...way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

    Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well... it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water....Not formula....WATER.  Hence....in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent...aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

    The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.  :) 

    Hehehe....sorry I use those as part of my marketing....(What my products DON'T contain.)

    I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support...so maybe look at an oil high in GLA....or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

    Keep in mind....if you use silk...I believe it can no longer be considered....Vegan.



    Ohh!! Yes, point 1 is quite different!! And I only use Allantoin at point 3 (.3) percent in my formulations.  I also prefer to use claim ingredients that have at least some scientifically proven benefit. I wouldn't feel right about using ingredients that have absolutely zero benefit. I have searched for conclusive data on Panthenol and whether or not it actually has any benefits and I have yet to find anything from a reliable source or study backed white papers on that. The suggested usage rate for Panthenol in skincare products is 1-5%...is 2% too high still? And yeah, the silk peptides are not considered vegan, which I don't like either.

    Hmmm...guess I have a bunch of Panthenol AND silk peptides that I won't be using 😕
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited March 2021
    abierose said:
    abierose said:
    My suggestion....I have been down that road....make it with and without....see if you can feel a difference. :)  If not...leave it out.  If not...and you want to advertise it on the label (claim ingredient), include it at .1%...it shouldn't stink up the product...and you can brag about it like crazy.  (Welcome to cosmetics.) :) 

    (ohh...and my new products do not include it...)



    Great suggesting to use it at 1%...
    OMG...you badly misread my statement... That would be POINT one percent.  That is the rate most claim ingredients are included at.

    And ummh....B5 level...way high.  Where are you getting these inclusion rates???  (Sounds like someone is trying to sell ingredients!)

    Guessing you are adding way too much allantoin as well... it will only dissolve (point five percent) .5 percent of your water....Not formula....WATER.  Hence....in my latest cream, the max I can put into solution is point 26 percent...aka 1/4 of one percent.  Anything higher than that it does not go into solution and simply becomes an abrasive.

    The sky is the limit when it comes to claim ingredients: snail slime, placenta, amethyst, gold, silver, meteorite or caviar.  :) 

    Hehehe....sorry I use those as part of my marketing....(What my products DON'T contain.)

    I try and use claim ingredients that have at least a hint of scientific support...so maybe look at an oil high in GLA....or Bisabolol and Niacinamide.  The market loves HA.

    Keep in mind....if you use silk...I believe it can no longer be considered....Vegan.



    Ohh!! Yes, point 1 is quite different!! And I only use Allantoin at point 3 (.3) percent in my formulations.  I also prefer to use claim ingredients that have at least some scientifically proven benefit. I wouldn't feel right about using ingredients that have absolutely zero benefit. I have searched for conclusive data on Panthenol and whether or not it actually has any benefits and I have yet to find anything from a reliable source or study backed white papers on that. The suggested usage rate for Panthenol in skincare products is 1-5%...is 2% too high still? And yeah, the silk peptides are not considered vegan, which I don't like either.

    Hmmm...guess I have a bunch of Panthenol AND silk peptides that I won't be using 😕
    Oh....use the panthenol....just cut the rate.  You were looking for good 'claim' ingredients....it would be one!!! (Not meaning supported by science...but something that makes many customers feel warm and fuzzy.) :) 

  • abieroseabierose Member
    Graillotion said:
    abierose said:
    I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters 🤭
    Butters and scent...directly correlate to level of cleanliness and refinement.  Want any butter you can dream about...without the scent.... Look at the refined Danish butters sold at MYO... In a class by themselves.
    Good to know! Would you say MYO's butters are superior to NDA's? I haven't purchased butters from either but I know you have recommended NDA before. 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    Yes!  I have found nothing like the Danish butters....ANYWHERE.  And yes...I love the oils I get from NDA.

    MYO's butters come from here: ICSC - Leading supplier of natural oils, butters, antioxidants & preservatives

  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    @abierose I get a strong healing effect from panthenol on my parched skin. When I've used the liquid version on my skin neat, it has a definite positive effect.. obviously I would never use it regularly like that as it's so sticky... I've only ever used it neat to get a feel for what it does. It also usually has an effect on a formulation... sometimes it makes it feel nicer (richer, rounder), sometimes worse (sticky, draggy). You just have to try different levels and see what works.

    As a consumer, I would never seek out panthenol in products though. It's not very exciting.. a bit overdone by the whole Pantene thing in the old days.

    I used to use allantoin but when I left it out, I didn't see any negative effect so I haven't picked it back up. I also wondered if it had an exfoliating effect and could actually be problematic/drying when used repeatedly (as I would use a cream on my hands)...  
  • abieroseabierose Member
    helenhelen said:
    @abierose I get a strong healing effect from panthenol on my parched skin. When I've used the liquid version on my skin neat, it has a definite positive effect.. obviously I would never use it regularly like that as it's so sticky... I've only ever used it neat to get a feel for what it does. It also usually has an effect on a formulation... sometimes it makes it feel nicer (richer, rounder), sometimes worse (sticky, draggy). You just have to try different levels and see what works.

    As a consumer, I would never seek out panthenol in products though. It's not very exciting.. a bit overdone by the whole Pantene thing in the old days.

    I used to use allantoin but when I left it out, I didn't see any negative effect so I haven't picked it back up. I also wondered if it had an exfoliating effect and could actually be problematic/drying when used repeatedly (as I would use a cream on my hands)...  
    Wow! That is good to know that you get a strong healing effect from Panthenol. It seems like the general consensus amongst consumers is that Panthenol does add benefit to cosmetic products. I can understand why it is pointless to use it in rinse off products though. Prior to becoming a member of this site, I actually had no idea that in the cosmetic chemists' world, Panthenol is generally refarded as having little to no effect in cosmetics and since learning this, I must admit that I now have a hard time trusting a marketed product that lists Panthenol in their ingredients. But I've also heard that Argan oil isn't anything more than a "label appeal" ingredient too, yet I know people who SWEAR that it does wonders for their hair 🤷‍♀️ 
    As far as Allantoin goes, I only use it at point 3 percent (.3%) in my formulations and I always add it in the cool down ingredients to prevent any recrystalization, which would cause the exfoliating effect you mentioned. 
    Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback on this topic! I really appreciate any and all the information I get!
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @abierose - if you look at the most popular Argan oil hair products, they contain silicones like Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone to get the effect. 

    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • RedCoastRedCoast Member
    abierose said:

    And I agree, there are a LOT of other such ingredients that have strong, and often times off-putting odors...I had to learn that the hard way with quite a few different butters 🤭
    I got a cocoa butter once, and it was hugely disappointing. The chocolate-y smell was there, but it had sharp top-note and a musty undertone! Yuck!

    Graillotion said:
    Yes!  I have found nothing like the Danish butters....ANYWHERE.  And yes...I love the oils I get from NDA.

    MYO's butters come from here: ICSC - Leading supplier of natural oils, butters, antioxidants & preservatives


    Thanks for the tip! I'd been looking for a good mango butter for a while! Do you think ICSC's butters are even better than Jarchem's?
  • RedCoastRedCoast Member
    abierose said:
    Prior to becoming a member of this site, I actually had no idea that in the cosmetic chemists' world, Panthenol is generally refarded as having little to no effect in cosmetics and since learning this, I must admit that I now have a hard time trusting a marketed product that lists Panthenol in their ingredients.

    That's because the typical concentration of panthenol in cosmetic products are 1% or less. Furthermore, the emulsion matters. Panthenol is used in Europe for its wound-healing properties, but they're formulated in concentrations of 4-5% and are in W/O emulsions. As far as I know, there are no studies comparing panthenol to allantoin or hydrocortisone, so the skepticism in the cosmetic community is warranted.

    Panthenol in <2% in an O/W emulsion appears to only have humectant effects. In this case, it's probably on-par with (or even inferior to) other humectants like glycerin.
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    abierose said:
    Wow! That is good to know that you get a strong healing effect from Panthenol. It seems like the general consensus amongst consumers is that Panthenol does add benefit to cosmetic products. I can understand why it is pointless to use it in rinse off products though. Prior to becoming a member of this site, I actually had no idea that in the cosmetic chemists' world, Panthenol is generally refarded as having little to no effect in cosmetics and since learning this, I must admit that I now have a hard time trusting a marketed product that lists Panthenol in their ingredients. But I've also heard that Argan oil isn't anything more than a "label appeal" ingredient too, yet I know people who SWEAR that it does wonders for their hair 🤷‍♀️ 
    As far as Allantoin goes, I only use it at point 3 percent (.3%) in my formulations and I always add it in the cool down ingredients to prevent any recrystalization, which would cause the exfoliating effect you mentioned. 
    Thanks for taking the time to give me some feedback on this topic! I really appreciate any and all the information I get!
    I personally like argan oil! For the skin though, not for the hair.. actually I don't like any oils in the hair. Like panthenol though, I think argan oil has lost its marketing appeal, again due to over-use/over-exposure in low-performing products.

    Re. allantoin I never saw an exfoliating effect from recrystalisation, but I read that it's keratolytic. Given how much cream I use on my hands, I didn't really want to risk over-doing it and inadvertently ending up with even drier skin.
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Perry said:
    @abierose - if you look at the most popular Argan oil hair products, they contain silicones like Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone to get the effect. 

    Yes, I believe that. In fact any time I find a hair product that I really like, it always has silicone. I love them and my hair does too!
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