Hello,
I’m a home formulator just making products for my own use. I am looking for some feedback on a rinse-out conditioner formulation that I have been using. I want something conditioning for my bleached, curly hair and find this isn’t quite doing it. These are the ingredients as supplied:
Demineralised water – 72%
BTMS 50 – 7%
Cetyl alcohol – 3%
Argan oil – 6%
CETAC (25%) – 2%
Cyclomethicone – 2%
Dimethicone – 2%
Hydrolised wheat protein – 2%
Chamomile extract – 1%
B5 – 2%
Fragrance - 0.5%
Preservative - 0.5%
I have learned from this forum that the BTMS is too high, but I have kept it at this level because I am looking for that extra conditioning. I also expect that the chamomile, wheat protein and B5 are just being washed away and am keen to produce to something that is simple and not wasteful.
Here are my specific questions (although any feedback is appreciated):
1. I do sometimes add polyquaternium 7 but as I use it in a leave-in conditioner have started leaving it out. Should I reintroduce it? I can get polyquaternium 10. Should I use that if it I am looking for more conditioning?
2. I have limited access in my country to many of the ingredients recommended in this forum, such as amodimethicone, but I can get polyester-11 (kerazyne), which I believe is similar. If I were to use this, would I use it in place of the silicones and polyquaternium?
3. I have always used BTMS but now find that I can get behentrimonium chloride from a supplier. If I was to try this, would I use it in addition to the BTMS/CETAC or in combination? If so, what percentages would be appropriate?
Thanks in advance.
Mel.
Comments
2. See above.
3. This will come down to personal preference. You can give behentrionium chloride a shot if you would like. For percentages, look at the manufacturer recommendations and then experiment from there.
For a rinse off conditioner to work the conditioning agents have to stay behind on the hair. There are 3 ways that happens.
1. Electrostatic interaction
2. Dilution deposition
3. Combination of the above
Cationic surfactants follow the first mechanism. Oils & silicones the second. Cationic polymers can adhere in both ways.
In general, you don't want more than one ingredient operating through each of the mechanisms.
So, you have Behentrimonium Methylsulphate and CETAC. Why? Both of these are cationic surfactants. They both will stick to the hair in the same way and essentially compete against each other for places to stick. When you are first starting a formula, don't use multiple cationic surfactants. Start with just one.
You have Chamomile extract, hydrolyzed protein & B5 which are all (mostly) just rinsing down the drain.
You have Argan oil which may deposit a bit but then you have Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone which also deposits. With silicones in your formula you aren't going to notice any effect from Argan oil. (If there is any anyway). And you don't really need 2 silicones, Dimethicone would suffice.
If you want to add a polyquaternium, you could but as has been suggested if you have dimethicone so you probably won't notice anything.
I'd say start with a simple formula and build from there.
As perry said start with
%2 cetyl alcohol or more for viscosity
%1 dimethicone
Fragrance
Preservative
And see how this fees
Btw what viscosity dimethicone are you using?
@Abdullah, I have been using dimethicone 100 but have recently been able to get 350. I have course, naturally dry and bleached hair and have trouble adequately conditioning it.
@Perry, how do these principles extend to a leave-in conditioner? I assume the water soluble ingredients can be included (but should they be?). Is BTMS or CETAC your preferred cationic surfactant in a leave-in conditioner? Is the polyquaternium again redundant if I am using a silicone in this case?
Thanks so much.
Mel.
Mel.
Thanks again,
Mel.
Think of it like this.
Behentrimonium chloride has 22 carbons per molecule
Cetrimonium chloride has 16 carbons per molecule
Let's make the assumption More carbon left behind = better conditioning.
Let's make another assumption that a strand of hair can "receive" 10 molecules of conditioner.
So, if you treat it with a Behenyl only system you'll get 220 carbons on the hair
and a CTAC only system will have 160 carbons on the hair.
If that was the case, the Behenyl system would be seen as "better". Whether you would notice or not is a matter of opinion but let's just say it is.
Now, if you mix Behenyl and CTAC they will each compete from the 10 slots equally so maybe you get 5 behenyl and 5 CTAC which would be 190 carbons on the hair.
Of course, this is just simplified and theoretical but hopefully you get the idea of why mixing them could result in lessened conditioning.
So is more carbon left behind on the hair more conditioning..? Or are you saying it's am assumption because the actual chemistry of hair conditioning and conditioning ingredients are much more complex and depend on multiple factors..?
If you taught a chemistry class, I would definitely take it!! ☺
2)Cyclomethicone is volatile, will it be feasible in products that are not in any kind of packaging, or will it evaporate?
Thank you.
Cyclomethicone will slowly evaporate so it needs to be in some kind of packaging.
Behentrimonium Chloride, but what if they use BTMS -50 / 25 or anything else? Does BTMS have antistatic properties too?
Thank you.
Perry , you've said that too many cationics in the formula and they compete with each other, lowering the performance of the conditioner- do you mean too many different or quantity?
Also- if they're competing with each other- why all of them BTMS and CTAC and polyquats are in the formulas?
Thank you.
Which formula?
Polyquats actually have a secondary mechanism by which they are left behind on the hair (dilution deposition). So they don't compete as much with other cationics.