Help with clarifying what phase to add certain ingredients

I have read conflicting information on which phase to add Polyquaternium 7 (and 10 for that matter). I have read from one vendor to add it to the water phase,, whereas another vendor says to add it in the cool down phase. Does it matter? And if so, which phase does it belong in? 
I have also heard conflicting information about Vitamim E and whether it can be added to the heated oil phase or needs to be in with the cool down ingredients. 
Thanks in advance to anyone that can clarify this for me! 

Comments

  • When to add the ingredients depends on the context. 

    For example for the Polyquaternium-7, if it's a cold process formula, add it to the water phase. If it's a heat process formula, you can add it during the cool down phase. 

    For the Vit E, add it during the processing where the mixture is still liquid to ensure better dispersion. For example, if it's a heated balm, add it while it's still slightly warm so that it can be mixed in. If it's a normal emulsion type formula where you have normal cool down phase below 40 degree Celsius, add it during that phase. 
  • jemolian said:
    When to add the ingredients depends on the context. 

    For example for the Polyquaternium-7, if it's a cold process formula, add it to the water phase. If it's a heat process formula, you can add it during the cool down phase. 

    For the Vit E, add it during the processing where the mixture is still liquid to ensure better dispersion. For example, if it's a heated balm, add it while it's still slightly warm so that it can be mixed in. If it's a normal emulsion type formula where you have normal cool down phase below 40 degree Celsius, add it during that phase. 
    Oh, ok....so the Polyquaterniums are heat sensitive and will degrade or be less effective if heated over a certain temperature?
    Thanks for helping me understand this better!
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    No, Polyquaterniums are not heat sensitive. It's usually more convenient to add them in the water phase as you heat it. But you can add it to the cool down phase too. That may make it go in the solution more quickly. Although if it is a powder that might cause "fish eyes" (globs of undissolved polymer) so you want to add it early.

    The bottom line is that it depends on the system. But no, polyquats are not heat sensitive.
  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    I'll second Perry's comment: these polyquaterniums are very robust, heat will not affect the,. However I recommend always dispersing these cellulosics, not just the polyquats, to cold water first then heat to effect hydration. Same with guars and the other polysaccharide resins, otherwise you are guaranteed the fisheyes Perry mentions. Those plug up your vessel's transfer valves and make your compounders really crabby and resentful. We only want happy, smiley compounders.
  • Perry said:
    No, Polyquaterniums are not heat sensitive. It's usually more convenient to add them in the water phase as you heat it. But you can add it to the cool down phase too. That may make it go in the solution more quickly. Although if it is a powder that might cause "fish eyes" (globs of undissolved polymer) so you want to add it early.

    The bottom line is that it depends on the system. But no, polyquats are not heat sensitive.
    Thanks for clarifying that Perry. Yes, it is definitely more convenient to add them to the water phase! And then what about Vitamin E..? Is that heat sensitive or not? I have read conflicting information multiple times on whether this ingredient should be added to cool down or not. 
    Thank you!!
  • I'll second Perry's comment: these polyquaterniums are very robust, heat will not affect the,. However I recommend always dispersing these cellulosics, not just the polyquats, to cold water first then heat to effect hydration. Same with guars and the other polysaccharide resins, otherwise you are guaranteed the fisheyes Perry mentions. Those plug up your vessel's transfer valves and make your compounders really crabby and resentful. We only want happy, smiley compounders.
    Ah, thanks for that info! Good to know! 
  • abierose said:
    Perry said:
    No, Polyquaterniums are not heat sensitive. It's usually more convenient to add them in the water phase as you heat it. But you can add it to the cool down phase too. That may make it go in the solution more quickly. Although if it is a powder that might cause "fish eyes" (globs of undissolved polymer) so you want to add it early.

    The bottom line is that it depends on the system. But no, polyquats are not heat sensitive.
    Thanks for clarifying that Perry. Yes, it is definitely more convenient to add them to the water phase! And then what about Vitamin E..? Is that heat sensitive or not? I have read conflicting information multiple times on whether this ingredient should be added to cool down or not. 
    Thank you!!
    Vitamin E will function as intended with the temps used to melt emulsifiers, and for the short duration you are at those temps.  
  • @Graillotion thank you for clearing that up for me!!
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    What I've just learnt from my study with IPCS is that Vit E should be added below 40°C. However, when pouring hot products, balms for example, you can add it into molten product, but at as low temperature as possible, as the heat will oxidize it. Also, you should count with the oxidizing effect and increase the input of the Vit E. 

    Hope that helps :)
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited March 1
    First of all.... Most beginners usually put 10-20X the amount of Vitamin E in that they need, so you would still be in good shape if you lost much of it.  However...that will never happen.

    Not endorsing the following link....but it should help.  Also keep in mind this article is using scientific C, not American F.  So you will never even approach the temps listed, nor the times.

    You are in great shape adding it whenever you want.

    You did not state the form of Vitamin E you are using?

    Thermal stability of Tocopherol - Swettis Beauty Blog (skinchakra.eu)

  • abieroseabierose Member
    @Graillotion Sorry I forgot to mention...I'm using Vitamin E T-50 (INCI: Tocopherol). It's not super critical to know whether or not it can be added in the heated oil phase but it would be nice to get a definitive answer 😀 But really, the only time it would be more convenient to add it at higher temps would be when making lip balms or deoderants or anything that sets up super quickly or begins to harden at temps higher than 40°(C). 
  • abieroseabierose Member
    Paprik said:
    What I've just learnt from my study with IPCS is that Vit E should be added below 40°C. However, when pouring hot products, balms for example, you can add it into molten product, but at as low temperature as possible, as the heat will oxidize it. Also, you should count with the oxidizing effect and increase the input of the Vit E. 

    Hope that helps :)
    Thank you Paprik! Unfortunately I'm still not 100% sure as to when it should be added, but I definitely appreciate you trying to clarify this for me 😊
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