"Soaping/whitening" when cream is rubbed into skin

edited January 2014 in Formulating
I make a cream with 58,5% water phrase, 22% oil phrase with emulsifier Olivem 1000 (Cetearyl Olivate (and) Sorbitan Olivate) used at 7% and OliWax LC (Cetyl Palmitate (and) Sorbitan Palmitate (and) Sorbitan Olivate) used at 2%, Myristyl Myristate used at 2%, as well as Cetearyl Alcohol used at 1%. And a C-phrase with 22% active ingredients. 

When this cream is rubbed into the skin, it has this soaping effect. I tried making it three times, and I took all the ingredients up to 180F, but I still get the same problem. Why does this happen?

It doesn't really melt into the skin untill after you have REALLY rubbed the cream into the skin. It feals nice, but the whitening effect is really annoying. 

Comments

  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Add a little dimethicone (DC 200, 350CS), it should help.
  • No silicone for my products, it's natural. Any other suggestions @milliachemist
  • edited January 2014
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/4rq6g3 here is the full formula

    I see a lot of product used Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, may this do something? Or alcohol, even though I do not want to use alcohol in any of my products. 

    In stead of silicone I could use Yerba Santa Glycoprotein, Bamboo Isoflavones or Bamboo Bioferment
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Try some of the Croda emollients, particularly the lighter ones.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • @Bobzchemist as mentioned before, I don't do synthetic and I don't do PPGs. I'm sure there will be great results using PEGs or PPGs, but that won't work for my brand. I need a way to do things naturally. 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2014
    Cognis has a whole line of Green Ecocert emollients in their Cetiol series and they work well.

    Lastly, what Natural standard are you following? I am never impressed with undefined "Natural." Following a credible standard is tantamount.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @ELDEskin I am sorry but I cant really suggest any natural stuff, not really well versed with the natural concept.
  • Olivem 1000 gives soaping effect. You can cut down the level and may use glyceryl srearate or sucrose stearate
  • @ChemWizard what's so annoying is that it said on the product page that Olivem 1000 wouldn't give ANY soaping effect..
  • @ELDEskin - in my oppinion, saying that you do not use synthetics is a non sense. All your emulsifiers (and preservatives and proteins and so on) are synthesized in a lab in a controlled environment, they do not grow on trees.... 

    Is this product intended for face or body? what type of skin? 
  • edited January 2014
    @simona well we use naturally derived ingredients. 

    The product is intended for face and for all types of skin. Escecially for balacing oily/acne-prone skin types. 

    Do anybody think this would work as a good emulsifier?

    Cetearyl Alcohol (2%), Glyceryl Stearate (2,5%) and Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate (2,5%) would work? 

  • ELDEskin - it all depends on your overall formula, the type of oils you choose, other additives.... IMHO, use an HLB calculator to check the recommended % of glyceryl stearate and sodium stearoyl lactylate in your formula.
  • @Microformulation We try to us as many EcoCert ingredients as possible. As well as natural extracts, and organic extract, botanicals, biofermets etc that is not certified, as we trust the supplier. 
  • @simona Thanks, do you know any good HBO calculatator? 
  • MakingSkincareMakingSkincare Member, Professional formulator
    You can download one from here - http://makingskincare.com/hlb-calculator/
    Jane Barber
    www.makingskincare.com
    www.learncosmeticformulation.com (free online course)
    Formulation discussion forum (18,000 members): www.facebook.com/groups/makingskincare/
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    1) Not everything from Croda is synthetic: http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/tds/cronatural-brazil-nut-oil/croda/2708/index.aspx

    2) Learning how to run a set of experiments to figure out whats going on with your formula is an important skill for a cosmetic chemist. Have you tried varying your emulsifier levels? 

    3) I've found it useful to build natural formulas by starting with the "natural" surfactants (because there are so few of them) and then figuring out which oils work best with them, rather then the more traditional way.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • Thanks for the tips @Bobzchemist

    I tried only using Olivem 1000 at 6% and OlivWax LC at 1% and Olive Oil at 10%. As well as water and gelling agent for stabilizing (Xanthan Gum). Works well so far. I will try to replace the water with the actives in a later try. 

    Another problem is that the cold phrase is 20%, and this means that the emulsion will be thinned out. A solvent for this problem may be that I need to make the "base cream" thinker, so it will not get runny when watery actives is added. May this have anything to do with the soaping? 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2014
    Everything I make is Natural. I only use the first 92 naturally appearing elements in the Periodic table.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Must be expensive getting hold of the natural Technetium  :-O
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I order it from Dr. Brown whenever he restocks his Plutonium for the Delorean.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @Micro like the logic :-)
  • Well @Bobzchemist mentioned the most important at all. You have to run some tests. It's part of a cosmetic chemist routine. Another very important issue is: always question what's said by suppliers and their websites/brochures, etc. I'm not saying they tell lies but not so absolute true statements.

    This soaping effect my be caused by (1) emulsifiers balance, (2) excessive amounts of mineral oil, petrolatum and cetearyl alcohol (by excessive please understand any amount above the supported by HLB balance). (3) high amounts of proteins and/or aminoacids, (4) surfactants present in raw material emulsions/microemulsions (to make them dispersible or solluble in water)... and some other, but most of times these are the reasons why.

    First of all: calculate your HLB required and balance your emulsifiers after that. Then you may change some raw materials or add others. Glycerin helps descreasing foam. If you keep trying without much success try suggesting your formula as an aerosol (or any similar) mousse, instead of a regular cream or lotion. If your products is already foamy when applied, no one will care if it still is foamy during application. That's not a joke. I do mean it.
    Research & Development Manager Brazil at Alfaparf Milano.
    Owner and Content Director at Cosmetica em Foco.
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Perry has written extensively about the use of knock-out experiments to diagnose formulation problems.

    There is another diagnostic step after knock-outs that has gotten less attention: Determining the Performance Envelope. (yes, I unabashedly stole that term from aviation)

    Think about a simple, 3-ingredient emulsion: Oil, water, emulsifier. We don't really need to run a knock-out experiment to figure this out, but bear with me for a moment. After running a knock-out experiment, we now know that the oil and water won't be stable without the emulsifier. We have decided that we want 20% oil in our emulsion (for aesthetic and/or performance reasons that have nothing to do with stability). 

    This is the time when you could run a performance envelope study. By making a number of batches varying the ratio of water to emulsifier, you are testing to see where the minimum level of emulsifier is to keep the emulsion stable (at a given level of oil), where the maximum level of emulsifier is (sometimes determined by stability, sometimes by cost or aesthetics) and at least approximately where the optimum level of emulsifier is. You may not have complete results until after you let your series go through accelerated stability testing, though.

    This gets rapidly more complex the more ingredients you have to test. That's why the running the knock-out series first is so critical - it lets you strip your formula down to the essential ingredients first.


    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    The complexity of this kind of study, and the amount of time it takes, is one of the main reasons why many professional cosmetic chemists have only one or two "favorite" emulsifier combinations. Once you develop a versatile system that works consistently, you tend to stick with it, and the more you use it, the faster you are able to optimize a formula with that system.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Bobzchemist Interesting perspective but you are right that it would be difficult to perform these studies under a deadline. In my practice I have more leeway to do so but I can remember my days in Contract Manufacturing. I would have had to barricade myself into the lab to get that much time.

    I do see the resistance to do knock-off experiments especially in Chemists newer to the Field. They believe that they can design a Formulation on paper and it will perform flawlessly. I think it is crucial for them in regards to career development to see how these Formulas don't always equate to real world experience. I have learned as much from my unsuccessful bench jobs as I have learned from my successful ones.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Thanks very much @Bobzchemist for a very interesting point of view. Really got me to thinking. I will of course follow your tips and try this out. 

    I talked with the distributor about the emulsifiers. I quote "... usually soaping is due to excessive use of fatty alcohols and sometimes fatty acids.  Any time that these are present at more than 3% total it requires the addition of advanced chemistry to avoid the soaping."
  • That's the other tip: ALWAYS question your suppliers about their raw materials. Of course we must test and run the knock-out series but the supplier must know or at least be interested in knowing the ingredient. I always question and ask them to run some testes in parallel. This way we learn together. Sometimes when there's time to wait and I have other profects with narrower deadlines, I even demand the information on the supplier and keep going with my taks. There was only once I had issue with that because the supplier didn't do anything. And then I replaced their ingredient. Now I can trust all my suppliers on this support.
    Research & Development Manager Brazil at Alfaparf Milano.
    Owner and Content Director at Cosmetica em Foco.
  • After following a HLB calculator, I managed to use Olivem 1000 at 2,5% and Glyceryl Stearate 1,4%. This worked very well to form a nice white cream, not very runny. In the final formula I would use Xanthan Gum to thicken and stabilize water phrase. So, when I used fatty alcohols and fatty acids under 3%, I managed to cut down on the soaping and lack of absorbing of the formula. 

    This leads to further questions. How can I thicken the cream without using fatty acids or fatty alcohols? Is beeswax a fatty alcohol? What about Prehydrated Gum Arabic? Can floral waxes be used? For example Rosa multiflora (rose) flower wax, witch is a solid creamy wax?
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    >How can I thicken the cream without using fatty acids or fatty alcohols? 
    Creams can be thickened in a number of ways. One of the easier ways is to increase the viscosity (thickness) of the creams outer, continuous phase. A thicker continuous phase also increases stability, by making it harder for the oil micelles to coalesce.

    You can use natural gums (xanthan, guar, locust bean, Gum Arabic, maybe the cellulosics) to thicken your water phase, or you can use mineral products (veegum, silica, etc.) I'm leaving out the polymeric and associative thickeners, since you can't use those.

    >Is beeswax a fatty alcohol? 
    Short answer: No
    Longer answer: You really should look this up yourself, but...
    "An approximate chemical formula for beeswax is C15H31COOC30H61. Its main components are palmitate, palmitoleate, and oleate esters of long-chain (30-32 carbons) aliphatic alcohols, with the ratio of triacontanyl palmitate CH3(CH2)29O-CO-(CH2)14CH3 to cerotic acid CH3(CH2)24COOH, the two principal components, being 6:1" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beeswax 

    "Fatty alcohols (or long-chain alcohols) are usually high-molecular-weight, straight-chain primary alcohols, but can also range from as few as 4-6 carbons to as many as 22-26, derived from natural fats and oils. The precise chain length varies with the source. Some commercially important fatty alcohols are lauryl, stearyl, and oleyl alcohols. They are colourless waxy solids, although impure samples may appear yellow. Fatty alcohols usually have an even number of carbon atoms and a single alcohol group (-OH) attached to the terminal carbon. Some are unsaturated and some are branched." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_alcohol

    " a fatty acid is a carboxylic acid with a long aliphatic tail (chain), which is either saturated or unsaturated. Most naturally occurring fatty acids have a chain of an even number of carbon atoms, from 4 to 28.[1] Fatty acids are usually derived from triglycerides or phospholipids." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatty_acid

    >What about Prehydrated Gum Arabic? 
    What about it? What do you need to know?

    >Can floral waxes be used? 
    Why would you think they couldn't be used? Specifically, what properties does the wax have that would lead you to suspect that it would not be appropriate for this use? Really, you can use anything you like that's cosmetic grade. The question is what effects you'll get. Adding waxes to an oil phase is one of the other ways of increasing viscosity. This method does not increase stability by much, if at all, which is why I didn't suggest it first.

    >For example Rosa multiflora (rose) flower wax, witch is a solid creamy wax?
    Try it, see what happens. Enjoying experimentation and having a certain amount of inquisitiveness are key characteristics for a cosmetic chemist. If you don't like to get in the lab and tinker, just to see what will happen, you will probably not be all that happy in your career.
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2014
    a good way to thicken it would be to increase your total emulsifier level (while keeping the relative ratio of the two the same), and/or user a mixer with higher shear

    either of these would make your oil phase droplets smaller and closer together, so they form a more rigidly structured emulsion when they solidify

    unless you put a hell of a lot of it in, beeswax will have a more immediate effect on the rub-out properties of your cream than it will on the viscosity
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • Dear 

    Please use 2% Sensolene(B&T product) in your formulation,try it ,use 2% glycerine,2% pg also 

    kunal
    GM-TECH(COSMECEUTICALS)
    kuna02in@yahoo.com
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