Updated HLB master list out there?

chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
My e-file for  HLB values is probably from the early 1990's. Does  anyone have or know where to find an updated compendium of HLB values for currently used nonionic emulsifiers and lipids? I'd like to see the many non-ETO emulsifiers (i.e. polyglyceryl esters) added to such lists, wherever they are...or aren't.

Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    HLB is utterly useless outside a narrow range of surfactant systems using PEG-derivatives.
    Some suppliers do publish HLB-ranges for polyglyceryl esters and the like but only because cosmetic formulators are extremely stubborn (or stupid) and can't let go of the HLB system. True, I also had to learn HLB during my studies but that was in a time where PEG-derivatives were in full bloom.
    The problem is raw material manufacturers do not share (or do not know) other, more useful parameters such as those used for HLD calculations.
  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    @Pharma ; Your opinion is noted and hardly novel. What you may not have realized is that the HLB system was never intended to be a certainty but merely a guideline to assess a starting point, plus it only applied to nonionics and a precious few anionics (e.g. lecithin, a fave of the "all-natural" crowd.) Relying on it 100% could be considered "stubborn"; though I would not digress to considering my peers "stupid". Also, PEG and ETO nonionics are still in "full bloom" for us many "stubborn" formulators who use them every day. Many manufacturers of PG and Gly ester emulsifiers have not been able to calculate a rough HLB for their emulsifiers, but some have made a good stab at it. Regarding the PIT-HLD values you mention: not a single supplier I know has been able to supply intel on those parameter values, and I have asked. Useful: yes, workable: not so much. 

  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 20
    individual manufacturers often supply figures for their own materials, but I don't know of any recent source that's compiled all of those figures in once place
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    @chemicalmatt Wasn't intended as an offence ;) .
    Sure, as a guideline it's okay, as good as the notion 'w/o emulsifier' or 'detergent'. But you can as well just look at the molecule and tell that much.
    And yea you're right, PEGs are still in full bloom... let's call it then the predominant hype or something in that direction?

    The problem with measuring HLB by PIT technique is that many non-PEG emulsifiers lack a cloud point and calculating is more an estimation due to polyglyceryl esters being non-linear unlike their PEG counterparts.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    If you follow the most recent Croda Guidance, in their reference, they discuss calculating an HLB. However, I will agree with Pharma in many respects. I used it a great deal more in OTC manufacturing in the past where PEG's were common. It does give a starting point for your initial proposed emulsification system which you can then tweak at the bench.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Regarding calculations: THIS might help ;) .
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    it's never been an exact science, but it's definitely a good rule of thumb
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
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