Neuralgia cream....collecting ideas.

Graillotion

I have a loved one that suffers from occasional bouts of neuralgia.  I would like to create a cream for pain relief (not for sale....just for personal use).  I know how to make cream.  I just wanted some ideas for the actives.  I know the industry is full of hype / claim ingredients, so looking to narrow some of those down, and focus on the possible functional ones.
I will list some of the actives I have stumbled across, and you can comment on those, and add any you think have value.  Needs to be items I can easily acquire, not prescription.

List of candidates:

Blue Tansy / Moroccan Chamomile EO (high in Chamazolene)
α-Bisabolol

Helichrysum Essential Oil

Ravensara Essential Oil

Peppermint EO
Tamanu Oil
Magnesium (what form?)
CBD products...(what form?)

And anything else that might have some evidence that it helps with nerve pain.  Not saying that the above list has scientific backing.

Bo77

I make CBD cream for my husband frequently. Quite expensive as I use high quality high percentage. Usually for 100g cream I use 1g of CBD powder (1000 mg) the powder form is much better than oil. 1g of good quality CBD costs me around $45, but it's worth it. Little goes a long way. I tried to mix it with magnesium too,( powder) it was an excellent combo for pain, but it re crystalized. I think magnesium oil form would be better. Didn't really bothered us, it's just for him. You can try it. I didn't bother to trouble shoot it :-) 

Bo77

For CBD I use only my local guys where I know the quality, I don't buy CBD wholesale, that's why it's expensive. 

Graillotion

Bo77 said:

For CBD I use only my local guys where I know the quality, I don't buy CBD wholesale, that's why it's expensive. 

Thank You.  As I do not have 'local guys'...I had searched...and found  'LaurelCrest' which seemed to have a professional website.....(I know...I know)...  Was just curious if anyone can list a reputable seller of high quality CBD and reasonable prices?

Pattsi

For Neuralgia - lidocaine 5% patch, capsaicin 8% patch for desensitize the nerves.   
Is capsaicin acquirable? But maybe buying 3% Lidocaine cream is easier?

If you want to play with CBD
Recommended Dose - THC:CBD (1:1) 15 – 60 mg/d
For Neuropathic pain (any causes including post-operative pain, cancer pain, non-cancer pain, neuropathic pain, Multiple sclerosis)
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/28806817/ 
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2430692/
And lots of clinical trials in https://www.clinicaltrials.gov/

And salicylates for superficial pain.

Graillotion said:

  Needs to be items I can easily acquire, not prescription.

IMHO cosmetics actives would not work or you might try looking into traditional Chinese medicine regiment you may find an acquirable ingredient.
Best of luck.

Graillotion

Pattsi said:

If you want to play with CBD
Recommended Dose - THC:CBD (1:1) 15 – 60 mg/d


And salicylates for superficial pain.

Is that CBD recommendation....an oral one?
What would the inclusion rate be for a cream?

What form can I readily find salicylates in?  (From cosmetic re-packers?)  The willow bark extracts?

Thank you... I will look into them.

Pattsi

It's sublingual/oral dose recommendation.
There's still no topical recommendation issued yet, the mechanism involved  central nervous system so CBD cream would unlikely works. But who knows it might works for some.

Methyl salicylate, don't know it is available in cosmetic re-packers?

Since Oregon decriminalizes small amounts of Heroin and Cocaine, you might look into it as well, but be veryyyyyyyyy careful.

Graillotion

Pattsi said:

It's sublingual/oral dose recommendation.
There's still no topical recommendation issued yet, the mechanism involved  central nervous system so CBD cream would unlikely works. But who knows it might works for some.

Methyl salicylate, don't know it is available in cosmetic re-packers?

Since Oregon decriminalizes small amounts of Heroin and Cocaine, you might look into it as well, but be veryyyyyyyyy careful.

For CBD (Isolate) topical...I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

Regarding Methyl Salicylate..... Isn't that pretty much what Wintergreen EO is?

I am looking at Paeonol from Chinese medicine.

I am a FIRM believer in the placebo effect, so some of these ingredients will be included to 'convince' people it works.    

Mission accomplished.  

Pattsi

Graillotion said:

For CBD (Isolate) topical...I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

seem about right if it doesn't break your cream but seem expensive.

Graillotion said:

Regarding Methyl Salicylate..... Isn't that pretty much what Wintergreen EO is?

pretty much yes
https://go.drugbank.com/drugs/DB09543
https://patents.google.com/patent/US8889659B2/en
For some idea if you want to combine stuffs or you can look up pain relief cream from India, lots of interesting herbal stuffs.

Graillotion said:

I am looking at Paeonol from Chinese medicine.

cool, interesting never heard of topical use before.

Graillotion said:

I am a FIRM believer in the placebo effect, so some of these ingredients will be included to 'convince' people it works.    

Mission accomplished.  

cool, some people convince other what works or not, some people convince themselves what works or not. 

mhart123

One of our customers has asked us to duplicate K5 diabetic skin care nerve pain formula, not real familiar with it but apparently its a hot seller? I included the formula below if your curious what's in it - seems to be a lot of vitamins and may just be for marketing. Anyways, the active in it is zinc acetate but it also seems it may contain a fair amount of Palmitoylethanolamide and when I searched that ingredient I found some literature regarding the treatment of pain. I haven't really read through them yet but might be something to look into.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094513/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3500919/

K5 nerve pain formula:
Active: 0.25% zinc acetate Inactive: Water, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Ceteareth-20, Mineral Oil, Palmitoyl Ethanolamide, Caprylhydroxamic Acid (and) Phenoxyethanol (and) Methylpropanediol, Sodium Hyaluronate, Polypodium Leucotomos, L-Citruline, Niacinamide, Philloquinone, Menaquinone, Ascorbyl Glucoside, Thioctic Acid, Cetylhydroxyproline Palmitamide, Caffeine USP, Tocopheryl Acetate, Retinyl Palmitate, Glycine Soya (soybean) seed Extract, Collagen Amino Acids, Dextrose, Calcium Carbonate, Cholecalciferol, Anandamide, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, Buterospermum Parkii, Saccharomyces Zinc Ferment, Saccharomyces Magnesium Ferment, Saccharomyces Selenium Ferment, Water (and) Saccharomyces Zinc Ferment (and) Saccharomyces Copper Ferment (and) Saccharomyces Magnesium Ferment (and) Saccharomyces Iron Ferment (and) Saccharomyces Silicon Ferment, Panthenol, Dimethicone, Petrolatum, DI-C12-15-Alkyl Fumarate, Glycogen, Carbomer, Triisopropanolamine, Fragrance

Pharma

Placebo isn't a thing of belief, it's real, proven, and scientific. 40% of pain killer activity is actually placebo effect and it is taken into account by big pharma. We know for example what causes 'placebo' pain relief, we can block it with certain drugs and we can provoke it in the few subjects devoid of any by administer the right drugs. What we don't know is why on earth our body do produce placebo effects. It's not, or rather not entirely, dependent on conciousness, memory, experience, belief, or the like because it does also exist in babies and animals. It may be to some part the 'ritual' (caring for a crying baby or a whining dog) which triggers it? In adults, homoeopathy doesn't works in a clinical setting (double-blinded etc.) but in real life situations, it does. There are several reasons why, just ask a pregnant woman who's not allowed to take anything 'useful' (chemical). Many would tell you that a tea, some globules or a herbal poultice work great. These probably have a pharmacological action (though weak) but they certainly help because said woman can actually do something actively against her illness/discomfort and it also helps kill time till it gets better by itself. It's a win and if you don't ask for the how, it 'really' works. Your reality isn't what is out there, it's what you perceive, what your brain interprets from a fraction of inputs it gets from your environment.

The world is still a mysterious place full of awe and wonder! From a scientific and psychological point of view, magick (not stage magic) is real (depending on the definition of magick, of course I'm not talking Harry Potter here ).

Graillotion

Pattsi said:

Graillotion said:

For CBD (Isolate) topical...I seem to find a trend of about 1%.  Does that seem reasonable?

seem about right if it doesn't break your cream but seem expensive.

Has CBD isolate been known to break emulsions?
If so...I can tweak the one I have...as it is not very bullet proof.  I can add some 165 in there....since this one won't be about the 'amazing tactile' experience...  Probably going to be an ugly brown color anyway.
I am already imagining a cream so ugly that only a mother could love it.  Might even use the word 'salve' instead of cream.  

Graillotion

Pharma said:

Placebo isn't a thing of belief, it's real, proven, and scientific. 40% of pain killer activity is actually placebo effect and it is taken into account by big pharma. We know for example what causes 'placebo' pain relief, we can block it with certain drugs and we can provoke it in the few subjects devoid of any by administer the right drugs. What we don't know is why on earth our body do produce placebo effects. It's not, or rather not entirely, dependent on conciousness, memory, experience, belief, or the like because it does also exist in babies and animals. It may be to some part the 'ritual' (caring for a crying baby or a whining dog) which triggers it? In adults, homoeopathy doesn't works in a clinical setting (double-blinded etc.) but in real life situations, it does. There are several reasons why, just ask a pregnant woman who's not allowed to take anything 'useful' (chemical). Many would tell you that a tea, some globules or a herbal poultice work great. These probably have a pharmacological action (though weak) but they certainly help because said woman can actually do something actively against her illness/discomfort and it also helps kill time till it gets better by itself. It's a win and if you don't ask for the how, it 'really' works. Your reality isn't what is out there, it's what you perceive, what your brain interprets from a fraction of inputs it gets from your environment.

The world is still a mysterious place full of awe and wonder! From a scientific and psychological point of view, magick (not stage magic) is real (depending on the definition of magick, of course I'm not talking Harry Potter here ).

My point exactly....an ingredient list that will almost heal them upon reading.

Pattsi

Sorry I didn't mean that placebo effect in pain killer is not real, big pharmaceutical companies invest huge money in studies before they put their drugs out for approval.
I meant in cosmetics/supplementary diet when some people put a new strange extract in their product and make a semi-drug or drug claim, then do a hard marketing to convince their customers that it works. It makes me sad esply in cancer an CBD cycle.

Graillotion said:

Has CBD isolate been known to break emulsions?

I have no experience with CBD yet, I still have no access to reputable supplier other than uni lab which the price is still a bit too high.

EVchem

Surprised no one mentioned menthol? If you can tolerate/ like the smell. If you can get the CBD to dissolve (MCT works fine) then you shouldn't see much problem with emulsions

CBD suppliers who seem to have decent paperwork
https://www.klersun.com/
https://americanhempdistributor.com/

for CBG Amyris just came out with a version dervied from sugarcane so les legal issues.

Graillotion

EVchem said:

Surprised no one mentioned menthol? If you can tolerate/ like the smell. If you can get the CBD to dissolve (MCT works fine) then you shouldn't see much problem with emulsions

CBD suppliers who seem to have decent paperwork
https://www.klersun.com/
https://americanhempdistributor.com/

for CBG Amyris just came out with a version dervied from sugarcane so les legal issues.

Would you say menthol works as a pain reliever...or works as a Counterirritant?