Comedogenic ratings of emulsifiers....

I have spent a lot of time evaluating comedogenic rating of potential oils and butters for a face cream I will start work on, only to realize...one of the likely villains might me the emulsifier I might choose.
A quick search...I did not find an emulsifier comedogenic rating list.

My original finalist for primary emulsifiers was:

165
Mont 68
Mont 202

With various co-emulsifiers collected.

And thoughts of comedogenic values of the above 3?

Comments

  • Some of the co-emulsifiers I will try are:
    Aristoflex AVC
    Sepinov EMT 10
    Eumulgin SG (Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate)

    But since these will be used at lower rates...not sure if I need to be as concerned?
  • Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i'd normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 
    Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 
  • I did find the answer on one of the emulsifiers, Mont 202:

    Montanonv 202 is that it gives creams a unique evanescent and light feel with a matt finish. It also leaves the skin soft, but not oily, is hypoallergenic and non-comedogenic making it perfect for both oily and sensitive skin formulas.
  • jemolian said:
    Normally as part of a formulation challenge to myself, sometimes i will setup some weird challenge for my moisturizers, but i'd normally run through my ingredients via the following to see how consumers would perceive it: 
    Comedogenicity varies from person to person so, it still largely depends on the person if they would break out from it. 
    Thank you....these are useful tools I had not come across before!

  • I believe seppic has tested them so you normally can find some reference to that in their longer product info PDFs. Below are my dropbox links to the files if you haven't saved them before: 

    Montanov 202
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9tfvxjlcaz0t9/0922_Montanov_202_logo gb[1].pdf?dl=0

    Montanov 68
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru7s5v7dms51bu5/montanov 68.pdf?dl=0

    For the 165 type, not sure if any manufacturer as tested it since they are widely produced. 
  • jemolian said:
    I believe seppic has tested them so you normally can find some reference to that in their longer product info PDFs. Below are my dropbox links to the files if you haven't saved them before: 

    Montanov 202
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ri9tfvxjlcaz0t9/0922_Montanov_202_logo gb[1].pdf?dl=0

    Montanov 68
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/ru7s5v7dms51bu5/montanov 68.pdf?dl=0

    For the 165 type, not sure if any manufacturer as tested it since they are widely produced. 
    According to your inci decoder site....165 has a rating of 1-2.  So of the three....Mont 202 in the only non comedogenic of the three emulsifiers.

    To be honest...it was the one I was most excited about trying....1) PEG Free, 2) Matte finish...sorry...I just hate the gloss.

    Thank you for helping me sort through those.  I really like the detailed links on the Montanov emulsifiers.
  • No problem. I have to return the favor for the K-20W recommendation somehow. :) If you need the rest of the Montanov ones, i believe i should have it. 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited September 14
    jemolian said:
    No problem. I have to return the favor for the K-20W recommendation somehow. :) If you need the rest of the Montanov ones, i believe i should have it. 
    Nope....gonna test 202....and probably a mix of 202 and 68.... Then 68, and 165... And pick the best... (will also be testing combinations above with Sepinov EMT 10, and Aristoflex AVC....so the possible combinations....is already really high!)

  • I think if you are not using any electrolytes, you can consider using 3% to 4% Montanov 202 with 0.75% to 1% Aristoflex, depending on how thick you need the moisturizer to be. If you are using some small amounts of electrolytes, then 1% to 1.5% Sepinov should be fine. 

    Though with the K-20W, using carbomers would be fine as well. Normally i'd use Ultrez 10 or 20 depending on the electrolytes.  
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited September 14
    For the face cream...I have kicked all the electrolytes out.  So that I could try and max the sensories with the Aristoflex AVC (as a co-emulsifier) and the likes.  I think the only one left....is EDTA at .2%.

  • jemolian said:
    I think if you are not using any electrolytes, you can consider using 3% to 4% Montanov 202 with 0.75% to 1% Aristoflex, depending on how thick you need the moisturizer to be. If you are using some small amounts of electrolytes, then 1% to 1.5% Sepinov should be fine. 

    Though with the K-20W, using carbomers would be fine as well. Normally i'd use Ultrez 10 or 20 depending on the electrolytes.  
    I had read someone's comment...and maybe I understood it incorrectly....but that maybe there was a synergy regarding 'feel' with carbomer and Aristoflex AVC....?  Had you ever heard or experienced this?
  • I've not tested the feel or texture combo extensively, so i can't comment on that too much. One of my test base combination was:

    3% Montanov L
    1.5% Cetyl Alcohol
    0.6% Aristoflex
    0.15% Ultrex 21
    3% Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride
    3% Glycerin

    It turned out to be a very creamy moisturizer. 

  • jemolian said:
    I've not tested the feel or texture combo extensively, so i can't comment on that too much. One of my test base combination was:

    3% Montanov L
    1.5% Cetyl Alcohol
    0.6% Aristoflex
    0.15% Ultrex 21
    3% Capric / Caprylic Triglyceride
    3% Glycerin

    It turned out to be a very creamy moisturizer. 

    You have been such a wealth of information....let me toss this one at you.  I have a couple of butters I use for my lotions...and want to know which ones have a low comedogenic rating.... I am aware of Shea...but never really liked the feel.
    I also have Mango....but I like the below butters much better.

    I bought Kokum just for the facial cream...as I believe it is also a 0.  I also use Illipe (Shorea Stenoptera)
    Cupuacu
    Murumuru
    and have a sample of Pentadema Butter (Kpangnan) on the way.

    Do you know the Comedogenic rating on any of these?  I like to blend butters...hehehhee.
  • Unfortunately, I've not really tested on butters because i've only seen most of the china sellers sell limited butters and most of them only stock shea butter, so i can't really give an opinion on the rest. 
  • jemolian said:
    Unfortunately, I've not really tested on butters because i've only seen most of the china sellers sell limited butters and most of them only stock shea butter, so i can't really give an opinion on the rest. 
    I have only found one source of butters that I consider...OUTSTANDING.  

    International Cosmetics Science Centre A/S

    Phone: +45 86 22 99 86 • www.icsc.dk • reu@ifsc.dk

    Address: Cedervej 7, DK-8462 Harlev J - DENMARK

     

    cidimage006png01D486609F4C7F00cidimage002png01D5E708923921B0

     

     Keep in mind....their products are ultra refined....no scent....no color ... just light amazing goodness.  Some would disagree with me...if you can not smell the fires of the Amazon burning that they used to extract the raw butter out in the forest...hehehe.

  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    Folks, just keep in mind that comedogenicty is concentration dependent. Sweet Almond Oil is one of the highest rated - at 100% - but at 5% in your formula, not so much. With these surfactants, same holds true. Allergenicity is a broader issue and phenotype specific. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @chemicalmatt - Exactly!  Dose matters. It's true of ALL cosmetic ingredients.

    I think comedogenic ratings are pretty much worthless.
  • Folks, just keep in mind that comedogenicty is concentration dependent. Sweet Almond Oil is one of the highest rated - at 100% - but at 5% in your formula, not so much. With these surfactants, same holds true. Allergenicity is a broader issue and phenotype specific. 
    I assumed as much, and since the primary emulsifier will probably be in the top 5 ingredients, it aroused my attention.  Since my goal is for Montanov 202 to win this competition, I think I am in good standing with both comedogenics and allergens.
    Even though diluting comedogenic materials will in functionality reduce the potential for pore clogging, it might cause an educated consumer (or I suppose, uneducated can also be inserted here) to hesitate to buy the end product.  Therefore if I can eliminate them up front....I eliminate purchase hurdles down the road.
    Thank you for your comments.
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