Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Tretinoin stability issue ? need help

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  • Tretinoin stability issue ? need help

    Posted by Nixeus on September 7, 2020 at 9:23 am

    Hello People,

     

    To introduce me quickly, i’m not chemist but only a engineer
    ( not in chemistery field).

    I’m interresting a lot about anti aging and biochemistery since
    2012.

    I’m doing myself some products for haircaire ( because i
    have a male pattern baldness) and anti wrinkles cream face.

    All these are only for personal/family use.

     

    I’m reaching you today because i have some doubts about tretinoin
    stability.

     

    I will explain you why :

     

    I use a « standard night cream » then i put in it
    some Coenzyme Q 10 powder and 0,025% raw tretinoin. Tretinoin is a very good
    anti wrinkles agent ( boost collagen, help to cell turnover), that’s why i put
    it in my cream.

     

    Problem is simple, tretinoin, when used at 0,025% do some
    flakes/Peeling on the face , it’s a standard reaction of tretinoine because it
    enhance cell turnover. If i use 0,025% tretinoine from my pharmacia, i get
    flakes/peeling on my face…

     

    If i use my cream, with the same % of tretinoin ( yes, my
    maths are ok 😊 ) : No flakes, no peeling.

     

    My question is to know why i get no peeling/flakes with my
    custom cream :

     

    > Tretinoin react with another component in this
    cream cream which destruct my tretinoin ?

    >  Tretinoin is OK but some component in the cream
    prevent the peeling/flakes ?

    >  Other ?

     

    I really would like to know the truth about in order to be able
    to get my tretinoin working in this custom cream face. Any ideas ? Any preservative to add ?

    Here is the night cream i use, here is the component :
    Aqua, Glycerin, Cetearyl Isononanoate, C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate, Octyldodecanol,
    Potassium Cetyl Phosphate, Hydrogenated Palm Glycerides, Panthenol,
    Butyrospermum Parkii Butter, Cetearyl Alcohol, Glyceryl Stearate, Vitis
    Vinifera Seed Oil, Tocopheryl Acetate, Sodium Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate
    Crosspolymer, Cyclomethicone, Dimethiconol, Trisodium EDTA, 1, 2-Hexanediol,
    Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Citronellol, Benzyl Alcohol, BHT, Parfum.

    Thanks a lot :)

    Nixeus replied 3 years, 6 months ago 3 Members · 12 Replies
  • 12 Replies
  • pharma

    Member
    September 8, 2020 at 6:31 pm
    Most likely reason why: the tretinoin you have has already degraded before you actually could mix it with your cream.
    Besides, there is only a small amount of BHT in that cream which is unlikely to suffice to prevent further/full degradation within hours to days in case there still was some activity left.
  • Nixeus

    Member
    September 8, 2020 at 8:12 pm

    Hi, and thanks for the answer.
    My tretinoin is a recent batch from a lab and i store it in the freezer, so i “think” this tretinoin is fine.

    So if i’m sure my tretinoine is fine, i should try to add some BHT ? Any idea bout the amount to add ? 0.5% ? More ? Less ? I never used this in the past.

  • pattsi

    Member
    September 9, 2020 at 12:02 pm

    Tretinoine cream isn’t easy to make and mostly would comes in aluminium tube to prevent degradation. 
    easy way you may use standard tretioine cream and apply night cream after to prevent dryness and use sunscreen.

  • Nixeus

    Member
    September 9, 2020 at 6:07 pm

    Hi, why it isn’t easy to make ? And why aluminium ? Isn’t plastic jar /glass jar not enough ? (is stored in a dark place) ?

    Yeah, using standard tretinoin cream is possible but since i can get it raw tretinoin, it’s for me a good idea to mix it in my night cream.

    That’s why i’m looking for way to stabilize it.

  • pharma

    Member
    September 10, 2020 at 6:50 pm
    Fresh and freezer sound promising. Best to aliquot it ASAP upon receipt. Say you were to get 10 g, make 9 x 1 g mini-batches you freeze and 1 you further split into ready to use amounts so you’ll have to freeze-thaw max two times.
    Light, apart from oxygen, is your worst enemy and that’s why completely light-tight alu tubes are a good choice. Also working quickly and under dimmed light (no sunlight at all) is advisable.
    I once did test tretinoin with FT-IR and you can literally watch it degrade. Not like *ZAPP* and gone, but still a scary degradation speed. If you can afford to, store the cream in the fridge.
    There’s a bunch of discussions here, if I’m not mistaken, dealing with how to stabilise a tretinoin cream.
    BHT alone won’t suffice, use a combo of antioxidants and radical and oxygen scavengers with different modes of action.
    Alternatively, the observed absence of ‘effects’ might be a lack of adverse side-effects because your base is better made than the store bought product :smiley: ?
  • pattsi

    Member
    September 11, 2020 at 11:30 am

    tretinoin cream base is usually thin with minimal occlusion which is good for acne treatment.

    In my humble opinion.
    tretinoin cream should only be a prescription drug for ance vulgaris not product for cosmetic use. It is used as an adjunctive treatment in fine wrinkled patients under supervision of medical professionals. I myself am not very keen on using it for cosmetics propose it posts too many risks of side-effects and prolonged usage safety is still the issue. Many Derms prescibe it doesn’t mean you should DIY it. But in the end it’s your choice.

    I am sure @Pharma ‘s knowledge in this area is far better than mine. 

    I found this short pdf
    https://providers.amerigroup.com/AGP%20Documents/PHARM_ALL_CosmeticAnti-Aging.pdf

    have you considered using retinol or retinaldehyde?

    this study is also interesting too.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841824/

  • Nixeus

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 1:56 pm

    Pharma said:

    Fresh and freezer sound promising. Best to aliquot it ASAP upon receipt. Say you were to get 10 g, make 9 x 1 g mini-batches you freeze and 1 you further split into ready to use amounts so you’ll have to freeze-thaw max two times.
    Light, apart from oxygen, is your worst enemy and that’s why completely light-tight alu tubes are a good choice. Also working quickly and under dimmed light (no sunlight at all) is advisable.
    I once did test tretinoin with FT-IR and you can literally watch it degrade. Not like *ZAPP* and gone, but still a scary degradation speed. If you can afford to, store the cream in the fridge.
    There’s a bunch of discussions here, if I’m not mistaken, dealing with how to stabilise a tretinoin cream.
    BHT alone won’t suffice, use a combo of antioxidants and radical and oxygen scavengers with different modes of action.
    Alternatively, the observed absence of ‘effects’ might be a lack of adverse side-effects because your base is better made than the store bought product :smiley: ?

    Thanks a lot for your input.

    I think my tret is broken because i remember, when i received it, if i smelled it, it stinged the nose due to the acidity of the tretinoin. If now i smell it….it doesn’t sting the nose.

    I don’t really understand because i stored in the freezer, no light :(

  • Nixeus

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 5:36 pm

    Pattsi said:

    tretinoin cream base is usually thin with minimal occlusion which is good for acne treatment.

    In my humble opinion.
    tretinoin cream should only be a prescription drug for ance vulgaris not product for cosmetic use. It is used as an adjunctive treatment in fine wrinkled patients under supervision of medical professionals. I myself am not very keen on using it for cosmetics propose it posts too many risks of side-effects and prolonged usage safety is still the issue. Many Derms prescibe it doesn’t mean you should DIY it. But in the end it’s your choice.

    I am sure @Pharma ‘s knowledge in this area is far better than mine. 

    I found this short pdf
    https://providers.amerigroup.com/AGP%20Documents/PHARM_ALL_CosmeticAnti-Aging.pdf

    have you considered using retinol or retinaldehyde?

    this study is also interesting too.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2841824/

    Hi,

    I don’t know the stability of retinaldehyde. I have to look for. If it’s stable i could use instead of tretinoin since retinaldehyde will convert in retinaldehyde.

    Any idea about stability ?

  • pharma

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 7:29 pm
    Not stable, probably even less than retinoic acid and it’s less active. Retinol would be somewhat more stable but it’s also a lot less active too.
  • Nixeus

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 7:37 pm

    :( :( sad
    I have to find way to stabilize it in my freezer first :(
    In addition to adding tretinoin to cream i add in Minoxidil too since it increase minoxidil activity.

  • pharma

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 8:33 pm

    I would prepare minoxidil separately and also apply it separately. A synergism won’t be lost if you’re applying both on a daily bases ;) .

  • Nixeus

    Member
    September 14, 2020 at 8:48 pm

    yeah but it’s more convenient to having tret in the minox solution. btw some supplier sold in the past tretinoin in minoxidil…i wonder if they used BHT in it  or other preservative..Which are the amount of BHT to use approximatively ?

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