Formula Review Request // Body Lotion

jr93jr93 Member
edited August 17 in Formulating
Hi

I've been reading these forums for a while now and the discussions have been so useful in helping me on my journey to developing some skincare products for myself - I'm hoping someone can give me some further advice and pointers with the below recipe. I've tried to be as detailed as possible with the ingredients and method along with the specific issues/characteristics I am trying to change. I am going to engage with a local cosmetics chemist in the near future but before I do I want to do some further testing and experimenting.


The Formula: Body Lotion
Designed for to be a lightweight lotion (Thicker than a facial lotion) that absorbs quickly and doesn't leave a tacky feeling. The following formula seems to achieve this but I do have a number of issues that I'd like to address.

Oil Phase
IngredientINCI%
Unrefined Apricot OilPrunus Armeniaca Kernel Oil2.60%
Unrefined Thistle OilCarthamus Tinctorius Seed Oil2.00%
Unrefined Macadamia Nut OilMacadamia Integrifolia Seed Oil1.70%
Caprylic Capric TriglyceridesCaprylic Capric Triglycerides7.00%
Filtered & Deodorised Shea ButterButyrospermum Parkii Butter1.00%
Cetearyl AlcoholCetearyl Alcohol1.25%
VE EmulsifierGlyceryl Stearate1.50%


Water Phase
Ingredient


INCI


%
Distilled WaterAqua66.00%
Cucumber Glycerol ExtractGlycerin, Aqua, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract2.00%
GluconolactoneGluconolactone0.50%
MF EmulsifierSodium Stearoyl Lactylate3.00%
Xanthan GumXanthan Gum0.30%

Cooling Phase
Ingredient



INCI


%
Preservative 12Phenoxyethanol, Ethylhexylglycerin1.00%
Refined Hemp Seed OilCannabis Sativa Seed Oil2.00%
Vitamin E Oil (Mixed Tocopherols)Tocopherol, Helianthus Annuus Seed Oil0.50%
Matrixyl 3000Glycerin, Aqua, Butylene Glycol, Carbomer, Polysorbate 20, Palmitoyl Tripeptide-1, Palmitoyl Tetrapeptide-7
1.00%
EcoSilkIsoamyl Laurate, Isoamyl Cocoate5.00%
Co2 Arctic Oat ExtractAvena Sativa Kernel Extract, Helianthus Annuus Seed Oil, Rosmarinus Officinaluse Leaf Extract0.15%
Saccharide Isomerate (Pentavitin)Saccharide Isomerate, Aqua, Citric Acid, Sodium Citrate1.00%
Other Ingredients N/A0.5%

Method
1) Heat the oil and water phases separately to 75c
2) Combine oil and water phases using a high shear rotor-stator and homogenise until fully emulsified
3) Mix at medium speed with a 4-leaf propeller as it begins to cool
4) Swap over to a low speed paddle stirrer after 15/20 mins and stir until below 40c when I then add the cooling phase ingredients
5) Continue to stir slowly with a paddle until cool
6) Adjust PH if needed (80% Lactic acid solution or 10% l-arginine solution)
7) Leave covered for 24 hours before bottling

The Issues
1) Soaping - When I first tested this formula without the EcoSilk I found that it soaped on application more than I liked. After research I stumbled across EcoSilk and tested at different % and landed on 5%. This produces a really nice skin feel and it has reduced the soaping somewhat (Side effect is that it smells bad (See question 2). I understand that I could use Dimethicone as an alternative which would be more effective and require a lower %. Would you all agree with this? Are there any more natural alternatives to fit current 'no silicone' trends? I've not used Dimethicone before, would I just be replacing one odour causing ingredient for another?

2) The Smell - It doesn't smell great to be honest and it certainly develops over the days after formulating. Having smelt all of the ingredients individually and having run multiple tests excluding various suspects, I believe it's coming from the Matrixyl 3000 and the EcoSilk. I can't remove the Matrixyl 3000 as it's a key active. If I successfully replace the EcoSilk (See question 1) the smell might reduce but I think it will still remain to some degree, how can I cover up/neutralise it? I'm trying my best to avoid essential oils or synthetic fragrances, not because I have an issue with them but others do. I've tried hydrosols but this was hit and miss. To be honest I think creating fragrances is outside of my skillset and too costly for me to have a bespoke one created. My research has pointed me to either Hydroxypropyl Cyclodextrin or just Cyclodextrin as smell masking alternatives but I really can't find much information on how to use these and at what concentration. If these are a good solutions does anyone have any advice and possibly know where to source these in the UK/EU? If not does anyone else have any other suggestions?

3) Cost - I'm aiming for a premium final product but are there any simple changes that could reduce my costs whilst maintaining performance? Could I remove or replace a particular ingredient with a cheaper alternative? Are any of the key actives being included at excessive concentrations?

Let me know if anything is unclear - I'm relatively new to all of this so any constructive criticism will also be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    You could use pure isoamyl laurate (Dermofeel sensolv) instead of EcoSilk. No odour at all and you can add it directly to the oil phase.

    Don't know about replacing other things based on $$ cause I don't know your prices. You could replace the unrefined oils with more macadamia nut oil. It has a nice nutty aroma whereas I only like hemp oil as food, not on skin.
    For me, shea butter is quite costly so I would consider switching it for another cheaper butter.
  • jr93jr93 Member
    Pharma said:
    You could use pure isoamyl laurate (Dermofeel sensolv) instead of EcoSilk. No odour at all and you can add it directly to the oil phase.

    Don't know about replacing other things based on $$ cause I don't know your prices. You could replace the unrefined oils with more macadamia nut oil. It has a nice nutty aroma whereas I only like hemp oil as food, not on skin.
    For me, shea butter is quite costly so I would consider switching it for another cheaper butter.
    Thanks for your help!

    Do you have a recommended starting point for the Isoamyl Laurate? The descriptions mention anything from 1 - 20% which is quite a wide band. Being able to add it to the heated oil phase would be really helpful as well. I always look to try and reduce the volume of cool down ingredients so that's great. I'll wait to see what anyone else recommends so I can run some side-by-side tests.

    Are you suggesting replacing the Apricot and Thistle oils with Macadamia so i'm just using one oil + CCT? What do you think this might do to the weight of the cream and the absorption rate or do you think the profiles are similar enough to be relatively interchangeable? I was actually considering removing it and replacing it with Olive Oil due to the (slim) chance of allergic reactions. What are your thoughts on just Olive Oil + CCT instead?

    I'll look into butter alternatives and no doubt come back with more questions

    Cheers
  • I think that your fat phase is too big. Also the Thistle oil tends to be oxidized very fast. Apricot kernel oil is fine, but its lightness depends of the manufacturer. I've seen Apricot kernel oils with quite differents characteristics. You could use only CCT and it would be perfectly fine. Me personally like to use in my products Grapeseed oil and Sesameseed oil. But I only use refined ones. For a less greasy product I would choose Mango butter instead of Shea. Me personally don't like Glyceryl mono stearate, I'd rather be use more Cetearyl alcohol because it is amazing thing. Olive oil is too heavy! I think your lotion will be in great benefit if you use Dimethicone. Ecosilk and even Esteroil can't beat the Dimethicone. They are all synthetic. I think the guys here would advice you to remove the extracts from the cool down phase.

  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 17
    ggpetrov said:
    I think that your fat phase is too big. Also the Thistle oil tends to be oxidized very fast. Apricot kernel oil is fine, but its lightness depends of the manufacturer. I've seen Apricot kernel oils with quite differents characteristics. You could use only CCT and it would be perfectly fine. Me personally like to use in my products Grapeseed oil and Sesameseed oil. But I only use refined ones. For a less greasy product I would choose Mango butter instead of Shea. Me personally don't like Glyceryl mono stearate, I'd rather be use more Cetearyl alcohol because it is amazing thing. Olive oil is too heavy! I think your lotion will be in great benefit if you use Dimethicone. Ecosilk and even Esteroil can't beat the Dimethicone. They are all synthetic. I think the guys here would advice you to remove the extracts from the cool down phase.

    Thank you very much for your input.

    Interesting about the fat phase being too large - I've certainly seen formulas go much higher than mine but I'll take that onboard in my next few tests. I'm definitely going to try and reduce this down to just one oil (Test between Apricot and Macadamia) + CCT in the oil phase and then reduce significantly but keep the hemp seed oil in the cool down phase for the marketability (I read it's heat sensitive hence why I add it at cool down, is that really true?). I did think Olive Oil would be too heavy so that's good to get confirmation.

    What issues have you had with Glyceryl Monostearate in the past? I haven't had any problems yet but it would be good to know what I might come up against.

    Seems I will need to test the Dimethicone out then, it never fails to get a mention - Recommend starting at 0.5%? Since I have been using 5% EcoSilk, do you suggest that the spare 4.5% just becomes extra water?

    I understand your point on the extracts in the cool down phase but they do help with claims/marketing - I may look to reduce them

    Cheers
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    The amount of isoamyl laurate would be the same as EcoSilk, a neat 1:1 replacement.
    Macadamia absorbs astonishingly fast and doesn't feel greasy at all. Absolutely beautiful oil and I don't know why it's better than every other natural oil I've tried, fatty acid profile doesn't give any useful clues.
    Me too, I wouldn't use olive oil.
    Hemp oil in the hot phase should be fine, just don't use it for cooking or frying.
  • I am not sure if adding an oil or water into the cool down phase is ok. I mean, that so called "neutralisation" of the emulsifier means that it stops to emulsify after certain temperature. So if you add an oil at the cool down phase it wouldn't be emulsified. But may be I am wrong?
    Well, if I add the Glyceryl Monostearate as a thickener, it tends to create a kind of layer, which seals the skin and that's create nasty feeling, at least for me. Recently I have found the "beauty" of Cetearyl alcohol and have no longer use Cetyl or Behenyl which I have used before.
    About the Dimethicone, you can use it as much as you want. I think the amount is dependant of Cs index. The more Cs-s the more viscous is the Silicone. But you can't substitute the Dimethicone with the Ecosilk. I found the Ecosilk to be greasy and unpleasant. I have it at my home, but don't use it anymore. And you should put the Dimethicone or Ecosilk at the hot phase certainly. They are substitute of the natural oils, and are not heat sensitive. The exception is the Cyclomethicone which is volatile.

  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 17
    Pharma said:
    The amount of isoamyl laurate would be the same as EcoSilk, a neat 1:1 replacement.
    Macadamia absorbs astonishingly fast and doesn't feel greasy at all. Absolutely beautiful oil and I don't know why it's better than every other natural oil I've tried, fatty acid profile doesn't give any useful clues.
    Me too, I wouldn't use olive oil.
    Hemp oil in the hot phase should be fine, just don't use it for cooking or frying.
    Ok I will give this a go - I am going to test Apricot + CCT, Macadamia + CCT, Grape Seed + CCT and just CCT. Do you, like ggpetrov, think that my oil  concentration is too high? Thanks again for your help.

    ggpetrov said:
    I am not sure if adding an oil or water into the cool down phase is ok. I mean, that so called "neutralisation" of the emulsifier means that it stops to emulsify after certain temperature. So if you add an oil at the cool down phase it wouldn't be emulsified. But may be I am wrong?
    Well, if I add the Glyceryl Monostearate as a thickener, it tends to create a kind of layer, which seals the skin and that's create nasty feeling, at least for me. Recently I have found the "beauty" of Cetearyl alcohol and have no longer use Cetyl or Behenyl which I have used before.
    About the Dimethicone, you can use it as much as you want. I think the amount is dependant of Cs index. The more Cs-s the more viscous is the Silicone. But you can't substitute the Dimethicone with the Ecosilk. I found the Ecosilk to be greasy and unpleasant. I have it at my home, but don't use it anymore. And you should put the Dimethicone or Ecosilk at the hot phase certainly. They are substitute of the natural oils, and are not heat sensitive. The exception is the Cyclomethicone which is volatile.

    I can't comment on the oil/water additions during cool down as I'm not knowledgable however when I use Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate for example it has to be added during the cool down and dissolved in water so I'm not sure you can get around it in some instances but I do try to limit the amount I add post cooling.

    All I can get is Dimethicone 1000 - I'm going to start low, around 0.5%. Since I had 5% EcoSilk and now I am using 4.5% less, should that 4.5% become oil/CCT/water etc?
  • Dimethicone 1000 is pretty viscous, but I'd suggest you to start from 2%, I think 0.5% is quite low. About the rest, you can substitute with a water. You can try several combinations : Light natural oil+Silicone+Butter, CCT+Silikone+Butter, Oil/CCT+Silicone+Petrolatum, Alkyl Benzoate+Silicone+Butter/Petrolatum.

  • jr93jr93 Member
    ggpetrov said:
    Dimethicone 1000 is pretty viscous, but I'd suggest you to start from 2%, I think 0.5% is quite low. About the rest, you can substitute with a water. You can try several combinations : Light natural oil+Silicone+Butter, CCT+Silikone+Butter, Oil/CCT+Silicone+Petrolatum, Alkyl Benzoate+Silicone+Butter/Petrolatum.

    Thanks for your help, I'll run some tests tomorrow once I get the Dimethicone and Isoamyl Laurate in and I'll update this thread for the benefit of others.

    Does anyone have any suggestions RE the smell/using the odour masking agents I initially mentioned - I think the Matrixyl 3000 is still going to be an issue....
  • jr93jr93 Member
    jr93 said:
    ggpetrov said:
    Dimethicone 1000 is pretty viscous, but I'd suggest you to start from 2%, I think 0.5% is quite low. About the rest, you can substitute with a water. You can try several combinations : Light natural oil+Silicone+Butter, CCT+Silikone+Butter, Oil/CCT+Silicone+Petrolatum, Alkyl Benzoate+Silicone+Butter/Petrolatum.

    Thanks for your help, I'll run some tests tomorrow once I get the Dimethicone and Isoamyl Laurate in and I'll update this thread for the benefit of others.

    Does anyone have any suggestions RE the smell/using the odour masking agents I initially mentioned - I think the Matrixyl 3000 is still going to be an issue....

    @Perry I think it was a post from yourself that I found where you mention using Cyclodextrin as a masking agent - Are you able to share any further information?

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 17
    Perry said:
    Thanks I'll have a read.

    Currently going through your 'the beauty brains' podcasts, very interesting!
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited August 18
    Pharma said:
    You could use pure isoamyl laurate (Dermofeel sensolv) instead of EcoSilk. No odour at all and you can add it directly to the oil phase.


    I agree completely.  The formula I just finished (with some help)... I was using Isoamyl Laurate, Isoamyl Cocoate...and when I compared it to just straight up Isoamyl Laurate...there was an amazing difference....much lighter....no greasy after feel etc... IL by itself is remarkably better than the 90/10 blend!  If you live in the US...you can get small amounts of IL from Formulator Sample Shop.

    A little surprised to see a blend of refined oils...with unrefined oils...usually one goes all in...refined or unrefined?
    Just my experience with about 7 or 8 mac nut oils.... It will blow your mind...the difference between suppliers....and refined vs unrefined.  I will disagree with Pharma...and say...unrefined mac nut is only suitable for cooking!  Of all that I tested...the hands down winner was....From Floratech.  Super lite....quick absorbing....just amazing stuff...  Will never use another supplier on that one.
    Pharma turned me on to cascading emollients... So I use IL, followed by ethyhexyl palmitate, followed by Caprylic Capric Triglycerides, followed by some lite oils, followed by slightly heavier oils.... Truly a Swiss marvel of sensories!
    If you want to keep your claim oils for labeling....just knock them down to .5%...you know the drill.  As I am from Hawaii...and like to keep Kukui on the label...I just include it at .5%.
  • You mention lightweight lotion...and Shea in the same thread...hehehe.  Can those really be in the same discussion? (said tongue in cheek).  I have gone through the gamut of butters...and here are my top 3 for a non-greasy lotion:
    (not in any particular order)... Cupuacu, Murumuru, Illipe.  
    Just like mac nut oil...I found HUGE variations from suppliers.  I will ONLY buy mine from https://www.makeyourown.buzz/butters-oils-waxes-thickeners/butters/  Theirs are essentially odorless...very non greasy, refined in Denmark (from ICSC).  Simply the cleanest butters you'll ever come across.

    Probably my greatest surprise in the last project was just learning the variability of ingredients from different suppliers!  You can take the same formula....made with lower quality ingredients, and have a greasy mess....Make it again...with better versions of the same ingredients...and have something amazing.
  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 18
    Pharma said:
    You could use pure isoamyl laurate (Dermofeel sensolv) instead of EcoSilk. No odour at all and you can add it directly to the oil phase.


    I agree completely.  The formula I just finished (with some help)... I was using Isoamyl Laurate, Isoamyl Cocoate...and when I compared it to just straight up Isoamyl Laurate...there was an amazing difference....much lighter....no greasy after feel etc... IL by itself is remarkably better than the 90/10 blend!  If you live in the US...you can get small amounts of IL from Formulator Sample Shop.

    A little surprised to see a blend of refined oils...with unrefined oils...usually one goes all in...refined or unrefined?
    Just my experience with about 7 or 8 mac nut oils.... It will blow your mind...the difference between suppliers....and refined vs unrefined.  I will disagree with Pharma...and say...unrefined mac nut is only suitable for cooking!  Of all that I tested...the hands down winner was....From Floratech.  Super lite....quick absorbing....just amazing stuff...  Will never use another supplier on that one.
    Pharma turned me on to cascading emollients... So I use IL, followed by ethyhexyl palmitate, followed by Caprylic Capric Triglycerides, followed by some lite oils, followed by slightly heavier oils.... Truly a Swiss marvel of sensories!
    If you want to keep your claim oils for labeling....just knock them down to .5%...you know the drill.  As I am from Hawaii...and like to keep Kukui on the label...I just include it at .5%.
    Thanks. I’m going to be testing IL over the next week or so. In terms of refined vs unrefined that’s mostly because that’s what was available at the time but I’m going to be using refined oils only in the text test.

    Graillotion said:

    You mention lightweight lotion...and Shea in the same thread...hehehe.  Can those really be in the same discussion? (said tongue in cheek).  I have gone through the gamut of butters...and here are my top 3 for a non-greasy lotion:
    (not in any particular order)... Cupuacu, Murumuru, Illipe.  
    Just like mac nut oil...I found HUGE variations from suppliers.  I will ONLY buy mine from https://www.makeyourown.buzz/butters-oils-waxes-thickeners/butters/  Theirs are essentially odorless...very non greasy, refined in Denmark (from ICSC).  Simply the cleanest butters you'll ever come across.

    Probably my greatest surprise in the last project was just learning the variability of ingredients from different suppliers!  You can take the same formula....made with lower quality ingredients, and have a greasy mess....Make it again...with better versions of the same ingredients...and have something amazing.
    Interesting to hear how much can change between suppliers, you’re not the first to mention this in this discussion. I’m definitely going to keep this in mind if I opt to use a 3rd party manufacturer.

    I have some mango butter available that I’ll try in place of the Shea butter. It might just be because  it’s currently at 1% but it is still very light weight and is fully absorbed beyond the point you can feel it on your skin l very quickly. 

    I’ll post my test recipes and findings when ready so the benefit of others less experienced like myself.
  • It is completely normal to have a huge differences in the characteristics of the natural products. The people are different, the plants either. Every plant gives oils/extracts with different characteristics, and they can vary a lot. The diferences are dependant of the geofraphic location, the climate, the season, and of a certain vegetation conditions. So, you can't expect that the oils and other plant products can be the same. Also the fact that they are natural / unrefined mean that they didn't pass any control. You don't know what exactly could be in them. So, the term "Natural" doesn't have to mean healthy and good in any case. Anyway, the refined oils are good alternative because they are more stable to oxidization and in general are more safe than the unrefined ones. It's a completely different thing the conversation about the benefits of using natural oils at all.

  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 19
    Perry said:

    I had a look at this and it makes sense to me on a theoretical level but I can't find enough info on where to actually source CDs in the UK in small qts and how to actually make the complex? I read through a number of sources (incl. https://www.intechopen.com/books/cyclodextrin-a-versatile-ingredient/-cyclodextrins-as-encapsulating-agents-of-essential-oils) but I think that this is 1) Past my experience level & 2) Not do-able in small lab?

    I think I'll pick this up directy with the chemist I will be working with but thanks for pointing me in the right direction. :)


    I did come across Pro-Lip Neo by Lucas Meyer which claims to be able to allow you to create your own liposomes with actives. Is this not quite similar to how the Cyclodextrin work in the sense of encapsulating one ingredient inside another? Forgive my ignorance if this is totally incorrect, i'm learning as I go...If this is correct, do you think it would work with Matrixyl 3000?

    Thanks
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    from a marketer point of view - How premium are you aiming for? if i'm not wrong you are going Natural?  Aren't there tons of natural products with high/low prices in the market right now?

    from your LOI your production cost is fairly high then packaging vise, advertising vise, distribution vise and other stuffs, your final product will be around?

    Caprylic Capric Triglycerides
    7.00%  


    will be shown as second ingredient  some might not like it because they think it has high comedogenic rate.

    why not choose a fanciest oil and place it at second and cut down CCT  

    Cucumber Glycerol ExtractGlycerin, Aqua, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract2.00%


    why not use Glycerin and cucumber extract seperately

    what is the product selling point?
    what Matrixyl 3000 1% supposed to do in body lotion.  on the lebel will the customers know what Matrixyl 3000 is. why not go with easy name like glycogen, collagen, vitamin c.

    or Hemp Seed Oil is the selling point but how can u differentiate yourself from other in the market.

    i'm sorry if this come off as rude or offend you.
    and i didn't mean to discourage you.
    what i want to say is launching a product you have to plan ahead of time.  

    1% maltodextrin can help trap the smell  a bit
  • jr93jr93 Member
    Pattsi said:
    from a marketer point of view - How premium are you aiming for? if i'm not wrong you are going Natural?  Aren't there tons of natural products with high/low prices in the market right now?

    from your LOI your production cost is fairly high then packaging vise, advertising vise, distribution vise and other stuffs, your final product will be around?

    Caprylic Capric Triglycerides
    7.00%  


    will be shown as second ingredient  some might not like it because they think it has high comedogenic rate.

    why not choose a fanciest oil and place it at second and cut down CCT  

    Cucumber Glycerol ExtractGlycerin, Aqua, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract2.00%


    why not use Glycerin and cucumber extract seperately

    what is the product selling point?
    what Matrixyl 3000 1% supposed to do in body lotion.  on the lebel will the customers know what Matrixyl 3000 is. why not go with easy name like glycogen, collagen, vitamin c.

    or Hemp Seed Oil is the selling point but how can u differentiate yourself from other in the market.

    i'm sorry if this come off as rude or offend you.
    and i didn't mean to discourage you.
    what i want to say is launching a product you have to plan ahead of time.  

    1% maltodextrin can help trap the smell  a bit
    Thanks for your response, nothing rude about it. I’ll look into the maltodextrin.

    In terms of advertising and biz. strategy - I’m much better versed in these and have worked in the industry so I know what I’m in for if I move forward. With regard to prices and market saturation - my view is that in the market I am interested in, there are a lot of brands selling the same thing with no real story. It appears saturated but I believe many of them will not get very far due to the costs of business and lack of point of difference, something I’m looking to avoid so thanks for your advice.

    RE your other points - I’m not specifically aiming for natural. It’s great when there is a natural option but I’m open to anything so any suggestions are welcome. I am aware of growing trends and sometimes even if they are wrong you can’t totally ignore them.

    I’m currently testing a few modified versions to see what I prefer based on the advice I’ve been given and I’ll take yours into account.

    For what it’s worth I’m really just learning so when o work with a chemist I have a better understanding.

    Cheers
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    for soaping nothing beats silicone i personally like 5 cst.
    for CCT 7% i personally think it is too high for a lightweight lotion. if cut down and play with the right gums and or polymers the texture and sensory can come out really good.

    Happy formulating  :) :) :)
  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 22
    Wondering if anyone can advise on the below.

    As I am running these tests I am coming up across a PH issue - If i'm ever below my target I have no issue lowering the PH using an 80% Lactic acid solution. But when I need to raise the PH I seem to have to use a lot of 105 L-Arginine solution to get any movement.

    For example I just made a test formula with a new emulsifier and my PH came out as 3.2. It took almost 15ml of the L-Arginine solution to raise it to 4.8 (400g of cream). Is this normal? Trying to avoid adding water post-emulsification so this seems odd to me anyway. I double checked the L-Arginine solution itself and the PH was 11.2 so that's not the issue.

    Does it usually take more to raise a PH? Is there a better solution to L-Arginine that would require less (Trying to avoid caustic soda but I'll go down this rouse if need be)?

    Thanks
  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 22
    Edit to above*

    If i'm ever above my target I have no issue lowering the PH using an 80% Lactic acid solution. But when I need to raise the PH I seem to have to use a lot of 10% L-Arginine solution to get any movement.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    That's likely because you have a buffered product.
  • jr93jr93 Member
    Pharma said:
    That's likely because you have a buffered product.
    Thanks! Should have realised that myself....feeling stupid haha  :)
  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 24
    Pharma said:
    That's likely because you have a buffered product.
    @Pharma - I've managed to sort that issue out, thanks for pointing it out but I am having PH related issues still.

    I have made a very basic test recipe in which I removed most of the extracts and other claim ingredients etc so that I could run some cheap tests. The pH came out at 6.0 and I adjusted successfully to 5.4. I then split the lotion into 3 separate beakers. In one I added nothing to the lotion, in the other two I added 0.25% and 0.5% Gluconolacctone dissolved in the minimum amount of water to see what impact that had.

    My understanding from research is that Gluconolacctone can be used to help prevent pH increases by slowly decreasing the pH itself, effectively regulating against something else increasing the pH - Am I way off here?

    My results show significant decreases in pH - Before I make a mistake again would I be right in thinking that it's because I used too much GDL? I picked 0.25% and 0.5% as starting points as I've not really worked with the ingredient much before.

    • Test 1(Control - 0% GDL): 6.0pH adjusted to 5.5ph, after 48 hours the pH had risen back to 6.0pH

    • Test 2 (0.25% GDL): 6.0pH adjusted to 5.5ph, after 48 hours the pH had fallen to 3.8 pH

    • Test 3 (0.5% GDL): 6.0pH adjusted to 5.5ph, after 48 hours the pH had fallen to 3.4 pH

    Can anyone let me know what mistake I am making and if it's likely just a case of too much GLC?

    Cheers
  • Hi! I also believe your oil phase might be a bit high (I think the formula you posted has around 25% +/-), and only VE emulsifier at 1.5% and Sodium stearoyl lactylate 3.0%. Did you check if the product is stable in the oven? 

    Also, I believe your Sodium stearoyl lactylate might be the cause of your foaming being an anionic surfactant after all. Can you replace it? You could increase the amount of your VE emulsifier, and introduce GMS or similar to stabilize the emulsion.

    If you worry about your costs, check how you truly feel about peptides. Did you perform efficacy tests with and without Matrixyl 3000? did you try with lower doses?  

    The pH issue you had with Arginine might be due to the fact that Gluconolactone forms a buffer system in the presence of Arginine. 

    For your three tests lowering pH, which acid did you use?
  • jr93jr93 Member
    edited August 25
    ketchito said:
    Hi! I also believe your oil phase might be a bit high (I think the formula you posted has around 25% +/-), and only VE emulsifier at 1.5% and Sodium stearoyl lactylate 3.0%. Did you check if the product is stable in the oven? 

    Also, I believe your Sodium stearoyl lactylate might be the cause of your foaming being an anionic surfactant after all. Can you replace it? You could increase the amount of your VE emulsifier, and introduce GMS or similar to stabilize the emulsion.

    If you worry about your costs, check how you truly feel about peptides. Did you perform efficacy tests with and without Matrixyl 3000? did you try with lower doses?  

    The pH issue you had with Arginine might be due to the fact that Gluconolactone forms a buffer system in the presence of Arginine. 

    For your three tests lowering pH, which acid did you use?
    Hi - In my current test recipe my oil phase is only 11%, things have moved on since the OP and I’ll post an final update at the end :) I’ve tested at 40c for a few days and seems to be ok. I’ve also changed the emulsifier from the original post as well as added dimethicone to reduce soaping which has worked wonders and improved skin feel.

    I used a 10% lactic acid solution to drop the PH of the tests - I think this issue is one I’ll pick up in person with the chemist I’ll work with as it’s not a big problem at the moment. The PH is comes out at is safe and OK and doesn’t seem to rise over time  I was just trying to hint a specific target but I’ll put that to one side for now.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    jr93 said:
    ...
    • Test 1(Control - 0% GDL): 6.0pH adjusted to 5.5ph, after 48 hours the pH had risen back to 6.0pH

    • Test 2 (0.25% GDL): 6.0pH adjusted to 5.5ph, after 48 hours the pH had fallen to 3.8 pH

    • Test 3 (0.5% GDL): 6.0pH adjusted to 5.5ph, after 48 hours the pH had fallen to 3.4 pH
    ...
    Those results look just normal. Without a buffer, slight (0.5) pH changes over time (especially in an open beaker) are just normal. The other two also reflect expectations.
    So, what is your issue? Too low pH? A tip from another use there: Quickly boil the GDL/water stock solution will turn it into gluconic acid within seconds/minutes. Use that to adjust pH. The slow hydrolysis over time is a myth. Use for example triacetin for a pH driven hydrolysis to maintain a more or less stable pH (that's what's done to stabilise urea in creams/lotions).
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