Which oil that can be used in soap making contains NO or extremely LOW levels of phenols?

I am trying to find an oil that van used to make soap, but the oil has to be free of phenols, so no olive oil, no palm oil etc (they contain phenolic compounds).
How about animal lard?

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  • BelassiBelassi Member
    but the oil has to be free of phenols
    WHY?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • To make it a usable soap for people suffering from phenol intolerance.
    Any recommendations?
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    most vegetable oils have negligible (if any) phenol content; they're more common in essential oils
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • Great, thanks Bill. 
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Phenol is a chemical prohibited in most countries whereas polyphenols simply contain subunits with structural similarities with phenol but have no biologically identical behaviour. I don't know what you exactly mean with 'suffering from phenol intolerance'. If it's a real intolerance for phenol, then you're safe with any natural product.
  • @Pharma I looked it up. It came up in websites discussing things like the GFCF (Gluten Free, Casein Free) diet and the like and how removing phenols from your foods was the next step if you had *insert long list of conditions here* (eczema, autism, etc.)

    Sample: http://www.allnaturaladvantage.com.au/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Phenol-Sensitivity.pdf

    Apparently amines are bad for you too, based on that document... 🧐 is this the start of an amino acid free diet?
  • Pharma said:
    Phenol is a chemical prohibited in most countries whereas polyphenols simply contain subunits with structural similarities with phenol but have no biologically identical behaviour. I don't know what you exactly mean with 'suffering from phenol intolerance'. If it's a real intolerance for phenol, then you're safe with any natural product.
    @Pharma I looked it up. It came up in websites discussing things like the GFCF (Gluten Free, Casein Free) diet and the like and how removing phenols from your foods was the next step if you had *insert long list of conditions here* (eczema, autism, etc.)

    Sample: http://www.allnaturaladvantage.com.au/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Phenol-Sensitivity.pdf

    Apparently amines are bad for you too, based on that document... 🧐 is this the start of an amino acid free diet?
    Thank you pharma and letsalcido:
    Yes, I meant polyphenols rather than phenols, sorry about my error.

    There is an increasing number of people who suffer from polyphenol intolerance. This is, as you can imagine, as condition that is hard to manage as polyphenols are not only in just about every type of food but also in soaps, detergents etc- even if 'natural' ones and even in those being sold as hypoallergenic. Fortunately, there are now new supplements available which break down polyphenols in the stomach. When you are intolerant to polyphenols, however, you will react to them not only when ingested, but also when you get in contact with them through skin- or even breathing (scented candles, incense, perfume can all cause reactions).
    And yes, amines are often a problem, too, especially histamines. Those suffering from a polyphenol intolerance (virtually ALL autistic children/adults for example) will also suffer from issues with biogenic amines such as histamines.
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    I just spent some time researching this idea of polyphenol intolerance. And what I found was, that all the science is in favour of these compounds. Phenolic acids and polyphenols, such as flavonoids, are the best studied natural substances known to possess an anti-inflammatory and anti-allergic potential. One example of many.
    At the same time, I was unable to find a single reputable, believable source to the contrary. All those sites were quack remedy providers and the like.
    Therefore I am not going to comment further.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Belassi said:
    I just spent some time researching this idea of polyphenol intolerance. And what I found was, that all the science is in favour of these compounds. Phenolic acids and polyphenols, such as flavonoids, are the best studied natural substances known to possess an anti-inflammatory and anti-allergic potential. One example of many.
    At the same time, I was unable to find a single reputable, believable source to the contrary. All those sites were quack remedy providers and the like.
    Therefore I am not going to comment further.
    Dear Sir, the fact that 'science' is in favor of these compounds (and for the most part, rightly so) does not mean that you can't develop an intolerance to them. After all, there are many examples of 'beneficial' substances etc that can cause havoc in the bodies of those intolerant to them (the list is long, citrus fruits, cinnamon, dairy products etc). Cinnamon is also touted as anti-inflammatory and yet cause nothing but severe inflammation down to allergic shock in those intolerant/allergic to them.

    Now, there will always be 'quacks' selling quack products.

    The build up of polyphenols in the gut can lead to many issues- one of them which is increasingly focused on, in science is autism. Autism and polyphenol intolerance or phenol build-up are closely linked.
    Autism, however, is just one symptom. Many autistic children also suffer from various other health issues which could be linked to polyphenol build up.
    There are many reports that state that a change in diet and reducing polyphenol intake reduces symptoms markedly.

    Dr. Feingold whose Feingold Diet has helped many autism patients can hardly be described as a quack. 
    The problem may not be a classic intolerance but rather an inability to break down polyphenols and therefore cause a build up of them, which in turn can lead to a myriad of symptoms.
    It is rather easy to become 'intolerant' to polyphenols- all that needs to happen is for the body to lack phenolsulfotransferase-P (PST), an enzyme necessary to break down polyphenols.
    https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/2568905/

    Robert J. Sinaiko, MD for example is a known proponent of PST deficit causing behavior problems.

    Certain areas of the brain appear to lack the glucuronidation pathway, and in those areas deficient PST activity might allow the accumulation of toxic phenolic compounds. 

    Dr Feingold developed the famed Feingold Diet, which has helped many people around the world with their symptoms.
    Following the Feingold diet plan will benefit these kids by exclusion of foods known to include phenols, salicylates, dyes, and such.
    The phenol sulphotransferase (PST) sulfation pathway is necessary for the breakdown and removal of certain toxins in the body. The pathway is dependent on sulphur, sulphate, spe- cific enzymes as well as co-factors to make it work.

    Nor can researcher Rosemary Waring's findings be considered quackery.
    https://bham.academia.edu/RosemaryWaring
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosemary_Waring 

    Ann Swain was another pioneer conducting research into this phenomenon.
    Oftentimes salicylate intolerance is also linked to polyphenol intolererance with salicylates being a subgroup hardly surprising.

    https://www.slhd.nsw.gov.au/rpa/allergy/research/students/1988/anne.html

    There is also Dr. Theoharis Theoharides, an expert on mast cells and the immune system.
    https://gsbs.tufts.edu/facultyResearch/faculty/theoharides-theoharis

    https://www.drkarafitzgerald.com/2018/11/20/mast-cell-clinical-researcher-dr-theoharides/
    Excerpt: 'Dr. Theoharis Theoharides: Having said that, let me go back to the flavonoids. The flavonoids are basically three benzene rings. They have hydroxyl groups attached to them. Whenever we have a hydroxyl group attached to a benzene ring, we call that a phenolic compound. The reason I’m starting with that is about 15% or so of the general population and as many as 30% of the people that we’ve been talking about have phenol intolerance. I will ask patients or the families if someone gets hyper when they eat chocolate, strawberries, berries, grape seeds, that means they’re phenol intolerant. Therefore, I worry how much flavonoids of any kind that I would give them.'

    Modern science is always 20- 30 behind when it comes to doing studies into 'new' public health phenomena. The fact that 'science' has not yet bothered to research this means very little.
    Polyphenol intolerance is likely a 'modern' illness brought on by the overuse of phenolic compounds in many modern products.

    I hope this helps clear up some of the general ignorance around this subject.





  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Polyphenols are an important food constituent which is increasingly lacking in modern food. Polyphenols comprise an extremely broad variety of very different constituents and there is NO possibility to develop a collective sensitivity.
    Hence, I'm not commenting any further...
  • @Michaelv03 there is plenty of research supporting what pharma says. Even in autistic patients: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31085194/

    Fortunately, there are now new supplements available which break down polyphenols in the stomach

    Sometimes we need to evaluate the motivation behind “scientific” claims. Some people use their “credentials” to build a brand, a persona. They also create a need where there isn’t one, and profit. 

    A condition as serious as what you mention would not be treated with supplements. For the most part, those are unregulated and do little to nothing.

    Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions and the reason why you’d like to avoid phenolics in oils.
  • @Michaelv03 there is plenty of research supporting what pharma says. Even in autistic patients: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31085194/

    Fortunately, there are now new supplements available which break down polyphenols in the stomach

    Sometimes we need to evaluate the motivation behind “scientific” claims. Some people use their “credentials” to build a brand, a persona. They also create a need where there isn’t one, and profit. 

    A condition as serious as what you mention would not be treated with supplements. For the most part, those are unregulated and do little to nothing.

    Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions and the reason why you’d like to avoid phenolics in oils.
    That is absolutely correct. They are unregulated but they are also currently the only treatment there is. The condition I mentioned is serious, yes, but can not be treated at all yet (except with the usual superficial medication such as antihistamines- which stopped working for me years ago) because it is as of yet poorly researched. The problem is not polyphenols, the problem is a blockage in the sulfation pathway and the break down of polyphenols. There are only a few researchers who are finally starting to take this seriously. I have had this condition for 30 years and through my own efforts and research I am making headway- no doctor has ever been able to help since they know just about nothing about biogenic amines or issues digesting polyphenols. 
    But thank you for your input.
    I am still looking for a list polyphenolic content in a variety of food grade oils, but haven't found it yet. If anyone has any ideas, please let me know.
  • Pharma said:
    Polyphenols are an important food constituent which is increasingly lacking in modern food. Polyphenols comprise an extremely broad variety of very different constituents and there is NO possibility to develop a collective sensitivity.
    Hence, I'm not commenting any further...
    If your digestive system lacks certain enzymes or there is a blockage of any kind in the breakdown of any substance, of course you can develop a collective sensitivity. 
    If someone has an issue with histamines for examples (plenty of people do), then they will develop sensitivity to anything high in histamines- they will react to everything and anything introduced into their system that has any amount of histamine (with varying degrees of reaction depending on the current back up load of histamine in their system). They will even react to histamine produced in their own body (auto-immunity).
    Unfortunately, there are no tests for polyphenol intolerance available as of yet (it is not an allergy, but an intolerance).
    Those suffering from this condition all share the same story. 
    Consume something high in polyphenols- huge reaction.
    Avoid polyphenols (there are protocols available, such as the Feingold diet) and you will fare much better.

    And no, it is not a placebo effect we're talking about here. Most people know very little about what their food is made of or what constituents it contains, but after years of suffering from food related illness, people will eventually start figuring out that there is a huge amount of foods which cause issues and then there are also things that don't.
    Give someone with a suspected polyphenol problem lots of fruit, salad, green juices...and they will suffer an enormous reaction. Whether they already know what their problem is or not. Give them burger and fries = no problem.
    That is the shocking truth. I learned that myself as well. If I eat fruit of any kind (berries are the worst) I will start getting a reaction.
    If I eat 'unhealthy' and I eat fried food, I feel absolutely fine and I dislike fried food and junk food!). People that suffer from an issue with polyphenols are practically forced to avoid those healthy polyphenols. The only time I had no or hardly any symptoms was when either I did not eat anything or reduced my diet to 2 items (white rice, fried or boiled red meat) all day long- and of course I avoided exposure to detergents, soaps etc. I was only able to do so for 2 days as of course it was starting to become unbearable eating the same thing.

    I went to a myriad of 'doctors', very few of whom were able to even begin diagnosing  or helping me. They could not since their knowledge in such matters is limited. Immunologists are starting to realize that there is something to this. And no, I'm not crazy (unfortunately so many sufferers from this condition are labeled 'crazy' because people and even medical professionals can't understand that you don't have to intolerant to a large number of foods- you only have to become intolerant to ONE constituent found in ALL of those foods).

    Recently I even stumbled upon a book by a fellow sufferers (I have not read it yet) 'Salicylate Intolerance and the Healthier I Ate the Sicker I Got'.

    Salicylates are a subgroup of polyphenols, if you suffer from an intolerance to salicylates you are likely to also have issues with polyphenols as well as histamines and possibly other biogenic amines.

    There you go, hope this helps. Whether you believe it or not, Western medicine is well behind 'modern' food intolerance health issues because I believe many of them only started appearing with the advent of 'modern' food production techniques (introducing artificial dyes, coloring etc). Years and years ago, in fact about 20 to 30 years ago when children would start becoming hyperactive without explanation and some alternative health practitioners mentioned that it may be due to said artificial dyes and coloring, of course, they were ignored.

    Now, this is becoming a more and more universally accepted fact (with plenty of manufacturer's in various countries having stopped using them).

    It is known that people suffering with polyphenol intolerance will likely also suffer after ingesting artificial coloring as well as preservatives such as Sunset yellow (E110), Carmoisine (E122), Tartrazine (E102), Ponceau 4R (E124), sodium benzoate, Quinoline yellow (E104), Allura red (E129), Sunset yellow and Carmoisine all trigger reactions in me as well.

    Before I ever had an inkling what my problem could be, I had already noticed that ALL preservatives (especially the one whose name featured the 'benz' syllable) seemed to cause reactions and that anything yellow in color (food or cosmetics) ie. artificially colored drinks or shower gel containing yellow color would also cause reactions. I did not know why, but today I know that polyphenol/salicylate intolerance and an intolerance to the above preservatives and colorings are related. 

    Thanks for reading.







  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited June 27
    I honestly didn't read everything in your post cause I intended on not replying any further... anyway: The artificial colours you mention are all closely related azo dyes which can give cross-sensitivity and they are not polyphenols. Benzoate is not even a simple phenol whilst vitamin E would be a phenol and is mandatory for life.
    There is no single enzyme which breaks down polyphenols because there are so many different polyphenols that comparing one with another would be like having a 'pet allergy' against dogs, cats, birds, lizards, fish, spiders... just any animal you could possibly keep as pet. Besides, many polyphenols aren't metabolised (no need to), some aren't even assimilated, and others are detoxified by a broad set of your most basic liver enzymes. There is no enzyme in your digestive tract which is supposed to break down polyphenols, hence, there is no point in using a supplement which allegedly does that ;) .
    If you want food without polyphenols and you don't even tolerate oils, then you, my dear, are in deep troubles because most polyphenols aren't oil soluble but are part of the water soluble fraction. Hence, ALL fruits, ALL veggies, and ALL grains contain large amounts of polyphenols. Only more or less purified starches like white rice or white wheat flour contain negligible amounts. Your diet will hence be animal fat, animal proteins (meat), and starch. In other words, the typical diet of modern civilisation which causes so many problems, most notably of digestion. Eat healthy, eat a lot of fruits and veggies, omit artificial additives (who eats azo dyies, anyway, they even look unnatural and disgusting) and you'll do a lot better. If you have an intolerance which is hard to pin down and which is not related to synthetic additives such as the aforementioned azo dyes, then you should look into FODMAP aka fructose malabsorption.

    Oh, and one last thing: Natural oil without polyphenols = lard and cod liver oil. Others would be fractionated and/or transesterified derivatives such as fractionated coconut oil or ester oils and these are no longer 'natural', let alone organic. If you're an 'organic' person, then your diet is extremely heavy in polyphenols! Go McDonalds ;) .
  • @Michaelv03 the reasons these sort of diets and claims engage me so strongly are:

    1) as a biochemist generalizing a huge number of molecules that to the untrained eye are “the same”, and then blaming a single enzyme for processing them is unthinkable. Enzymes are most often highly specific, and a single atom on a given molecule is frequently enough for an enzyme to not bind to it.

    2) the diets that are suggested are often more detrimental than the symptoms that people are suffering from, and can lead to a slippery slope of health problems.

    I’m glad you’ve found a way to manage your symptoms though, each person is different in many ways for sure. 
  • Pharma said:
    I honestly didn't read everything in your post cause I intended on not replying any further... anyway: The artificial colours you mention are all closely related azo dyes which can give cross-sensitivity and they are not polyphenols. Benzoate is not even a simple phenol whilst vitamin E would be a phenol and is mandatory for life.
    There is no single enzyme which breaks down polyphenols because there are so many different polyphenols that comparing one with another would be like having a 'pet allergy' against dogs, cats, birds, lizards, fish, spiders... just any animal you could possibly keep as pet. Besides, many polyphenols aren't metabolised (no need to), some aren't even assimilated, and others are detoxified by a broad set of your most basic liver enzymes. There is no enzyme in your digestive tract which is supposed to break down polyphenols, hence, there is no point in using a supplement which allegedly does that ;) .
    If you want food without polyphenols and you don't even tolerate oils, then you, my dear, are in deep troubles because most polyphenols aren't oil soluble but are part of the water soluble fraction. Hence, ALL fruits, ALL veggies, and ALL grains contain large amounts of polyphenols. Only more or less purified starches like white rice or white wheat flour contain negligible amounts. Your diet will hence be animal fat, animal proteins (meat), and starch. In other words, the typical diet of modern civilisation which causes so many problems, most notably of digestion. Eat healthy, eat a lot of fruits and veggies, omit artificial additives (who eats azo dyies, anyway, they even look unnatural and disgusting) and you'll do a lot better. If you have an intolerance which is hard to pin down and which is not related to synthetic additives such as the aforementioned azo dyes, then you should look into FODMAP aka fructose malabsorption.

    Oh, and one last thing: Natural oil without polyphenols = lard and cod liver oil. Others would be fractionated and/or transesterified derivatives such as fractionated coconut oil or ester oils and these are no longer 'natural', let alone organic. If you're an 'organic' person, then your diet is extremely heavy in polyphenols! Go McDonalds ;) .
    Thank you, I appreciate this reply very much. Yes, I react to all fruit, veg and grains pretty badly, they have mostly been off my menu for 2 decades now :-(
    I will check out FODMAP.

    And thank you for the lard and cod liver oil tip!!
  • @Michaelv03 the reasons these sort of diets and claims engage me so strongly are:

    1) as a biochemist generalizing a huge number of molecules that to the untrained eye are “the same”, and then blaming a single enzyme for processing them is unthinkable. Enzymes are most often highly specific, and a single atom on a given molecule is frequently enough for an enzyme to not bind to it.

    2) the diets that are suggested are often more detrimental than the symptoms that people are suffering from, and can lead to a slippery slope of health problems.

    I’m glad you’ve found a way to manage your symptoms though, each person is different in many ways for sure. 
    Thank you letsalcido, given your biochemist expertise I do appreciate your insight very much.
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