Soap is better for Corona virus?

FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
edited March 9 in General
Is any professional knows if NaOh soap can be used as effective Sanitiser ?
And which most effective as Sanitiser : Ethanol based one or NaOh soap one? 
 Normally if NaOh soap works as Sanitiser it will be more economic. 
@Perry @Gunther ; @Chemist77 ; @Cafe33 
@ngarayeva001

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    For your body, washing hands with soap and water is better than hand sanitizer. Most important is that it removes the virus from your body even if it isn't killing it.
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
  • lmoscalmosca Member
    edited March 9
    Soap acts on SARS-CoV because their capsid is held together by a viral envelope.
    The membrane is destroyed by soap (just like by any other detergent or solvent, like high concentration of ethyl and isopropyl alcohol) because it is just a phospholipid bilayer with some glycoproteins. 

    One of the reasons why antibiotic agents do not work or work poorly is that viruses are not living, you cannot disrupt their function if their only function is using a host cell to self-replicate.

    That's why virtually any good sanitizer has surfactants. Those rip apart membranes of things like viruses and non-encapsulated bacteria. Then, high or low pH, or low water activity will cook the proteins to a mush, and eventually the genetic material will start degrading as well. 

    The only difference here is how the method of application works.
    Biocidal and viral inactivation requires a "contact time" to be effective. 
    Alcohol based products need high concentration of alcohol because alcohol evaporates quickly (rheology modifiers help by slowing down evaporation).
    Anything below 60% is ineffective because it will require too long contact time before it can destroy the membranes and that will be unpractical.

    Alas, it seems that the worst are foaming liquid syndets. Why? Nobody knows yet, but there seems to be a correlation (unconfirmed yet) between the efficacy of those vs. syndet bars. In the order: Soap > Syndet Bar > Liquid > Foaming/liquid. pH may play a role, as well as the concentration of the surfactants. Another theory is that it takes a lot more time to wash your hands with soap and syndet bars that it takes with liquid detergents. So the mechanical scrubbing of hands is even so more important.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Perry thanks for your clear answer. 
    @ozgirl very interesting link thanks. 
    @lmosca appriciate a lot your share, a rich answer thanks for it. 
  • GuntherGunther Member
    I believe that if soap works, then Polysorbate works even better while being milder.
    There are some studies that show that Polysorbates have some antibacterial activity. Possibly effective against some viruses too.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Gunther ; I think that the pH of NaOh  soaps is important for antibacterial activity thing not found in polysorbate. 
  • GabyDGabyD Member
    @Imosca, that is fascinating! I had to Google a couple of the terms you used, but really appreciate you explaining how the various methods work. There is a real shortage of hand sanitizer where I live so I was thinking of making some to sell through my store. 
  • GabyDGabyD Member
    Guys, if you were making a soap to help protect against COVID-19, what would you put in it?  Is it possible to include alcohol in a soap? Sorry if that's a dumb question :-).
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Hot-process soap at pH11 is perfectly adequate without adding anything else, and it already has glycerine in it.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • czkldczkld Member
    @GabyD I think that when you're trying to make a soap, the addition of alcohol isn't necessary, as the surfactants will dissolve the lipid membrane. You can make a pretty effective sanitiser with 70% ethanol, 1.2% Sepimax Zen, 5% propanediol, fill with water to 100%. I wouldn't sell it though, as it's probably against the law (sanitiser is an OTC drug in the States).
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Perry @Gunther @ozgirl ; is there any scientific study about Corona virus and hypochlorite de sodium solution??
     I saw and heard many formulations with  hypochlorite de sodium 12 degree : 
    One says 9 parts water to one part hypochlorite de sodium 12 degree. And other says 4 parts water and one part hypochlorite de sodium 12 degree. 
     Waiting your interesting answers, and I wish that if it is a real good product for killing corona virus all members know it to protect their self. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Sorry, formulating household cleaners is not my area of expertise. I haven't investigated the subject enough to give a useful opinion.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Perry whatever thanks for your answer. 
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Sodium hypochlorite solutions at 0.4-0.5% at a slightly alkaline pH is known as Dakin's solution and has been used to disinfect wounds since (quickly checking Wiki) 1916. Hypochlorite, like hydrogen peroxide and potassium permanganate, is a strong oxidant and will, at sufficiently high concentrations, kill and dissolve EVERYTHING living. The trick is to find the line between killing only microbes without harming humans. Those 0.5% have proven safe and effective but mostly to prevent bacterial and fungal infections.
    Is it effective against viruses? Good question... logic dictates that it has to be. Found some publications which state that surface decontamination depends on the type of virus tested and may take 5 to 10 minutes residence time (using 0.2 to 0.65% expressed as available chlorine).
    Higher % and higher pH certainly boost performance but also lead to skin irritation.
    A drawback is that iron and steel don't like hypochlorite.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 18
    @Pharma interesting answer thanks for it.
    I'am working with Sodium hypochlorite solutions at 2,4% I guess it can be very effective as it is concentrate solution,the idea is using it to desinfect the air and about human  for  hands we should wear Gloves then apply solution so pH will be not a problem and for rest body we apply solution in clothes (I try it in clothes and it did not cause whitening effect.) 
    By the way what about Vinegar and lemon juice for killing virus?
    @Perry @ozgirl @Chemist77 @Gunther ;
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    2.4% is likely to cause whitening on nearly all types of tissue dyes and will show the latest after washing your clothes (you can even get holes in some materials). Else, you did something wrong or have already white clothes ;) .
    Citric acid shows some antiviral activity and might be an option for third world countries for some types of application. Also, a mixture of hydrogen peroxide and acetic acid (or formic acid) known as peracetic acid is very effective (and very aggressive but degrades to rather harmless acetic acid).
    Air disinfection? Tricky!
  • AgateAgate Member
    edited March 18
    For cleaning air I would look into HEPA filters.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 18
    @Pharma actually I make 1:4  (12 degree Sodium hypochlorite solution, water) so the result I guess 2,4% 
    Whitening effect of Sodium hypochlorite solution did not need time as I guess however I have more then 3 hours Sodium hypochlorite solution at 2,4% and there is no whitening effect in my clothes just may the initial solution is not 12 degree as industrial mentioned it can be... 
    Air disinfection? Where is the problem by spraying solution in Air. 
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 19
    I saw LOL for coronavirus which is 25% Sodium chloride and 75% water so can it be effective as sanitizer?
     I have other idea which is use just alcohol with MPG or glycerin (which decrease the level of evaporation and make product more gentle ) with such idea we will not obliged to find adequat Carbomer or neutralizer for high alcohol level 70% or more. 
    So what do you think? @ngarayeva001 @Chemist77 @ozgirl @Cafe33 @Gunther @Perry @Pharma @lmosca ;
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    Thanks a lot @Perry ; very useful link
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Fekher said:
    ...
    Where is the problem by spraying solution in Air. 
    It usually doesn't work and there is commonly no need to 'disinfect' air. I've seen enough people doing so and it's utter nonsense. If you want to disinfect air, you'd have to hermetically seal the room, use unreasonably large quantities of disinfectant, and leave that for hours just to find yourself in an unbreathable atmosphere.

    BTW, liquid disinfectants are generally better than gel-based ons because of better/broader wetting especially under fingernails. Gels are simply easier to use on the go because they don't drip. Apart from convenience, there is absolutely no reason why someone would want to turn a liquid disinfectant into a gel.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 20
    @Pharma about desinfection air I guess not with that evidence we can say it works or not because I guess there is no specific study  about (air, corona virus, Sodium hypochlorite ) such study will depends many factors such Sodium hypochlorite concentration, time of contact, quantity of solution in Air, way of applying solution in Air...
    About Sanitizer spary I agree with you, such as I see it will have many benefits comparing to gel sanitizer even in cost... 
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 26
    Hi again professionals, so as alcohol not available in many countries is there any other effective product for hands (without washing means not soap solution when we are outside) for Coronavirus?
    I Read a lot about diluted hydrogen peroxide, combination between sodium chloride and hypochlorite sodium, combination between sodium bicarbonate and sodium chloride, combination between sodium carbonate and hypochlorite sodium last one found in Environmental Protection Agency so it is for sure right however the product may have other ingredients. 
     Your share is duty which can save life of thousands of peoples.
    @lmosca @Perry @Pharma @Cafe33 @Agate @ozgirl @chemicalmatt @Gunther ;
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited March 26
      The best, easiest and sure formulation product for Coronavirus i found is 8,25 % hypochlorite Sodium and Qsp Distilled or deionised Water

      So the benifits of product is sure product for Coronavirus confirmed by EPA with name ustin's A-1 Concentrated Bleach 8.25% and it has quite short  needed contact time ( 5 minutes) the product can be use for hands with Gloves, for vegetables, plastic, Stainless metals, woods, paper ....
      However it has whitening effect for clothes, irritant for body and corossif for no Stainless metal... 

      Professionals your turn to share. 
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    There is one huge problem for bleach solutions. It gets into your skin and you stink for hours and hours. I don't see that as acceptable.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
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