W/O emulsion separates

Hello Everybody!
I am relatively new and still learning how to make cosmetics a with the focus on creams.
So I am trying to get water-in-oil emulsion using the following emulsifier - Polyglyceryl Oleate (INCI Name: Polyglyceryl-4 oleate) https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Polyglyceryl-Oleate_p_131.html

The formula I am using is the following:
A:
xantham gum - 0.2% 
glycerin extract - 4%
water - 57.8%
A2:
aloe vera gel (10:1) - 5%
salt - 1%
B:
oil - 18% (the last one I tried shea butter - 5% and jojoba oil - 13%)
cyclomethicone (emollient) - 6%
emulsifier - 6%
C: CO2 Rosemary

I have tried to make it cold and heated (as the seller states - this emulsifier is perfect for both). If heating it - I heat both water and oil phases to 75C and then slowly enter water phase into oil, stirring.

I was recommended by the seller (makingcosmetics.com) to add Glyceryl Stearate SE into oil phase (recommended Use level: 1-10%), I started with 2% and increased up to 6%. On 6% emulsion looks a little flakey, which to me doesn't look normal.

I also have noticed it gets a lot worse when I add CO2 rosemary (in my case is diluted in olive oil, and I thought maybe this is the reason, but no as it still separates before entering CO2)

Any ideas on what possibly I am doing wrong? I am honestly about to loose my mind, as I played with different amount of oils, water, emulsifier, I used pure liquid oils and many other things. The seller is not very helpful at providing clear instructions of how to use this specific emulsifier.
If anyone has ever dealt with this emulsifier and knows the answer, please-please share!

Many-many thanks to everybody <3 <3<3

Regards,

Kat






Comments

  • bil7bil7 Member
    Dnt exactly know about your material
    But you can add peg 75 will work so or croda e wax or polawax works so far and about gms se is so comodegenic so i prefer to use gms as of croda .
    And reduce water ay 30 to 40 percent 
    Increase fatty acids at 15 percent and charged oil phase at 30 percent and other additives upto 100 as your formulations needed so desired appearance. 
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited January 13
    Water in oil.. the pain of my life... W/O is a very special type of animal. I am not claiming to know much, because I have been fighting with them for over a year and they continue to separate but here is what I know:

    1) Remove that xanthan, they work in a different way, you don't need gelling your water (there are some exceptions like Seppic's geltrap)
    2) Polyglyceryl Oleate is not designed for silicones. You would be much better off with GelMaker Silicone aka DowSil ES 5600 (Cetyl diglyceryl tris(trimethylsiloxy)silylethyl dimethicone) if you want to add cyclomethicone.
    3) Remove aloe at least for now (until you figure out how to stabilise it).
    4) You need at least two emulsifiers (better different types). I know several combinations that work, but I got them from Australia and Italy. If you are willing to pay for shipping from I will give you the names (but it might be pricy). Try to combine Polyglyceryl Oleate with cetyl diglyceryl tris(trimethylsiloxy)silylethyl dimethicone.
    5) You need some sort of stabiliser for the oil phase (instead of that xanthan). What can work: cera bellina, magnesium stearate, zinc stearate, plain beeswax (but the texture is meh), hydrogenated castor oil (aka castor wax) or if you don't have anything else - stearic acid (1-1.5%).
    6) The process is the key. Do you have an overhead stirrer? It's pretty important. You need to heat both oil and water phases (and if you use magnesium stearate you need to melt it completely), put your oil phase under overhead stirrer (or anything that would create low shear, like 300-500 rpm) and start SLOWLY pipetting water by drops. It will take some time. Make sure that every single drop has emulsified and doesn't sit on the surface. Then when the temperature drops (preferably to the room temp) take a stick blender and emulsify it. If you did everything right it will thicken.
    7) Water phase % - there is no right answer, to be honest. Some emulsifiers are designed for high water phase and perform worse with lower water phase which is counterintuitive. I read on ulprospector that if water phase is below 23% it is impossible to create round droplets which I guess should mean emulsion is less stable, but I had 40% of oil phase that separated the next day and I have a water in silicone with just 15% of oil made with that cremmaker silicone which I made in early October and it hasn't separated yet (and doesn't look like it's going any time soon). I guess, start from 25% of oil.

    Summary: several emulsifiers, special emulsifiers if using silicones, salt 1-1.5%, stabiliser (magnesium stearate) 0.5-1%, special water in oil process.
    W/O emulsions are nasty beasts! but I am absolutely in love with them. Good luck
  • bil7 said:
    Dnt exactly know about your material
    But you can add peg 75 will work so or croda e wax or polawax works so far and about gms se is so comodegenic so i prefer to use gms as of croda .
    And reduce water ay 30 to 40 percent 
    Increase fatty acids at 15 percent and charged oil phase at 30 percent and other additives upto 100 as your formulations needed so desired appearance. 

    Thank you!
    I have tried bee's wax as well, forgot to mention, but not with Polawax as I'd like to avoid Polysorbate in cream. But can try that as well. I will try reducing water and adding the oil phase, I have noticed that the more oils, the more liquid emulsion turns out. But will for sure try all your suggestions! Yay! Thank you so much for your response  :)


  • Water in oil.. the pain of my life... W/O is a very special type of animal.
    This is how I feel about them! And it was supposed to be so easy!
    I managed to get one that that did not separate and my skin LOVED IT!
    But it was too thick so really hard to use :(

    Thank you so much for such a detailed response!
    I will try all of that! Looks like I have months of attempts ahead until I make something stable lol

    I don't have a stirrer, but I am pretty sure I can figure something out, but I honestly didn't think it has to be entered by drops! Maybe that's the reason too.


    4) You need at least two emulsifiers (better different types). I know several combinations that work, but I got them from Australia and Italy. If you are willing to pay for shipping from I will give you the names (but it might be pricy). Try to combine Polyglyceryl Oleate with cetyl diglyceryl tris(trimethylsiloxy)silylethyl dimethicone.

    Could you please share INCI of them? I'll try to find something in USA

    And again, thank you so much! Will update later with my results.
    Very much appreciated  o:)


  • @Katrin2204 "Looks like I have months of attempts ahead until I make something stable lol" - unfortunately. I have one that hasn't separated since mid-summer but it's early to say it's stable. If you are ordering from the US only, Cremmaker Silicone by makingcosmetics is your best bet: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/CreamMaker%C2%AE-Silicone_p_1246.html.
    I really think you need to add it by drops and need to invest in the overhead stirrer. The good news, you can get one on eBay or Amazon for $70. Look for 100W and 3000 RPM Chinese stirrer. They do the job: https://www.amazon.com/CO-Z-Electric-Height-Adjustable-Mixer0-3000-Mechanical/dp/B07TX82NBL/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=overhead+stirrer&qid=1579002724&sr=8-3

    Try to use creammaker silicone as your main emulsifier and add polygelyceryl oleate as co-emulsifier. I haven't tried that myself, but if you don't have access to many materials it's better than nothing. 
  • @ngarayeva001 many-many thanks for the links! So far I have removed cyclomethicone  and it seems to not separate, but I'll still play with it! Thank you for your recommendations and links
  • @ngarayeva001
    I would prefer to thicken the water phase of every HIP emulsion, not only Seppic's Geltrap. That HIPe I made with PEG-30 dipolyhydroxystearate would be a whole lot better if I had gelled the water phase, I think. Now the skinfeel is very watery, although it leaves the typical W/O water resistant layer.
    I made it a few months ago and it's still stable though.
    I'll experiment some more with that PEG-30 as soon as I have time. Looking forward to it!
  • @Doreen, what do you use for the water phase? I saw biosaccharide - 1 gum in a couple of commercial w/si products. It is not a thickener really but it adds a little bit to viscosity.
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