Preservative for nonionic surfactant shampoo

What gentle preservative should be used for this nonionic surfactant shampoo formula? 
Aqua to 100%
Decyl glucoside 10% active 
Capryl/capryl glucoside 14% active 
Glycerin 4% 
Cationic guar gum 0.5% 
Sweet almond oil 1% 
EO 0.5%
Preservative ? 
pH 4-5 with citric acid

According to research lot of antibacterial preservatives are deactivated by nonionic surfactant like 
Benzyl alcohol 
Phenethyl alcohol
Phenoxythanol 
Caprylyl Glycol 
Glyceryl caprylate. 

We have decided to use caprylhydroxamic acid which is anti fungal. Just don't know which gentle antibacterial to use with it which is not deactivated by nonionic surfactant and to make it broad spectrum. 

Thanks for advices 🙋🏻‍♂️

Comments

  • Germall plus doesn’t get deactivated by highly ethoxylated compounds.
  • Thanks ngarayeva001. Any preservative which is in ecocert standard or ewg rated 1 or 2?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Abdullah:

    What is the pH of you final formula?  That will determine to a great extent what preservatives are appropriate.  FYI:  Caprylhydroxamic Acid ... I don't use it as it has proven to be too weak for broad spectrum.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • If you want to follow ECOCERT it’s your choice but EWG is pseudoscience. They spread harmful misinformation and confuse consumers.
  • Thanks MarkBroussard
    pH is between 4-5. 
    Caprylhydroxamic acid is for fungi, what anti bacterial to use with it to make it broad spectrum? 
  • Thanks ngarayeva001
    Any suggestion on preservative then? 
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 17
    OMG! Tough one!

    I say DMDM Hydantoin. But of course EWG says it is deadly. My only preservative is DMDM Hydantoin. I am too frightened to even try other eco, green, safe, organic, natural ones. I am waiting for my good self and others who use my DMDM Hydantoin-laden moisturiser die painfully!  >:)

    pH between 4 and 5...This one is easy. You probably can use a mixture of Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Gluconate (or Glucono delta Lactone or Gluconic Acid). Add in Salicylic Acid if you feel adventurous.

    Very natural. Very board spectrum. Very approved.

    Erm...Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as natural and as edible and as ubiquitous as they are, they have their own warnings and countless users' complaints.

    Even Glycerin/Glycerol whatever one believes, thinks, heard, seen 'safe' there is always warnings and complaints.

    There is always somebody allergic to something. Likewise, there is always someone (politically correct crazy) sensitive about every single bloody dayum thang.

    Sodium metal per se is lethal. Chlorine gas is deadly. Together they become Sodium Chloride, table salt, very safe to be touched and eaten. BUT....but it can be very bad if used concentrated. Glycerin is like that too. So does this mean EWG should also put table salt and Glycerin in the danger zone? I won't be surprised if they already did!

    Oh, Glycerin is also used as an anti-freeze! We're gonna die! Table salt can be used as anti-freeze as well! Both of them are commonly used to reduce or totally eliminate crystallisation of sugar (in baking) and lower down freezing point. Hence, anti-freeze is born! We're certainly gonna die!
  • AzizAziz Member
    OMG! Tough one!

    I say DMDM Hydantoin. But of course EWG says it is deadly. My only preservative is DMDM Hydantoin. I am too frightened to even try other eco, green, safe, organic, natural ones. I am waiting for my good self and others who use my DMDM Hydantoin-laden moisturiser die painfully!  >:)

    pH between 4 and 5...This one is easy. You probably can use a mixture of Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Gluconate (or Glucono delta Lactone or Gluconic Acid). Add in Salicylic Acid if you feel adventurous.

    Very natural. Very board spectrum. Very approved.

    Erm...Sodium Benzoate and Potassium Sorbate as natural and as edible and as ubiquitous as they are, they have their own warnings and countless users' complaints.

    Even Glycerin/Glycerol whatever one believes, thinks, heard, seen 'safe' there is always warnings and complaints.

    There is always somebody allergic to something. Likewise, there is always someone (politically correct crazy) sensitive about every single bloody dayum thang.

    Sodium metal per se is lethal. Chlorine gas is deadly. Together they become Sodium Chloride, table salt, very safe to be touched and eaten. BUT....but it can be very bad if used concentrated. Glycerin is like that too. So does this mean EWG should also put table salt and Glycerin in the danger zone? I won't be surprised if they already did!

    Oh, Glycerin is also used as an anti-freeze! We're gonna die! Table salt can be used as anti-freeze as well! Both of them are commonly used to reduce or totally eliminate crystallisation of sugar (in baking) and lower down freezing point. Hence, anti-freeze is born! We're certainly gonna die!
    Hi , I don't boder natural . In shampoo and conditioner I like to use DMDM . Please let me know , can I use MPS along with DMDM for broad coverage ? 
  • @Cst4Ms4Tmps4, I have been looking at DMDM Hydratoin for a while.. do you know whether it has any advantages compared to Germall Plus? Germall failed me recently, which probably was my fault, as no one asked me to add bug food to my facewash. Is it easy to formulate with? What I mean by that is whether it's easy to incorporate to a formula, whether it changes the viscosity of the final product etc.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 - we used DMDM Hydantoin as the primary preservative for all VO5 shampoo formulas for years. One of my first formulating projects was to remove methylparaben from our formulas because the DMDM worked fine by itself. Super easy to work with, it's essentially like just adding water. Never had a stability problem caused by it.

  • @Aziz
    Now that's the spirit!  B)
    Artificial, synthetic, man made, woman made, inorganic, or others are also part of chemistry. I find that synthetic stuff are way more stable than natural ones, and way easier to work with too compared to natural. Way safer and purer too!

    I assume MPS stands for Methyl Paraben Sodium. I never use advanced chemicals like MPS. However, DMDM Hydantoin, generally, at least to my finite knowledge, is compatible with everything.

    From my experience, DMDM Hydantoin alone has broad coverage and powerful.

    May I interested you with these links?

    https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-the-best-preservative-to-use/

    https://chemistscorner.com/what-is-the-best-ingredient-to-use/


    @ngarayeva001
    Yes, DMDM Hydantoin is exceptionally easy to work with and is extremely effective! I use it at maximum allowed concentration which is 0.6%. Depending on what is in my formula, I sometimes use 0.5% or less. Most of the time 0.6% because I don't trust myself! Hahahaha!

    I accidentally made tests by accidentally leaving alone few samples without preservative, all with Xantan Gum (Xanthan Gum and water, nothing else), all had black stuff that I presumed fungi. I do not heat the ingredients, the best chance to seeing things growing.

    I do not know the percentage of the actual formaldehyde-donor in Germall Plus. DMDM Hydantoin is usually 50% to 55% as supplied.

    I wager chemical structure counts. The type of formaldehyde-donor of Germall Plus is different to DMDM Hydantoin, just stating the obvious. So, probably that one (Diazolidinyl Urea) is weaker than DMDM Hydantoin even its usage rate is equal or higher than that of DMDM Hydantoin.

    Another reason could be due to the concentration of Diazolidinyl Urea as supplied is already low. And because the presence of Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate has a serious limitation upon how much Diazolidinyl Urea can be used.

    My Godly preservative is only DMDM Hydantoin. Its advantages are:

    - Inexpensive.
    - Does not affect colour, viscosity, scent, etc.
    - Very very friendly to most, if not every, known cosmetics substances. I never come across people whining about incompatibility, other than one's own personal private ultra sensitive incompatibly. :p 
    - Insanely cost-effective.
    - Significantly fewer scares and restrictions compared to Germall Plus (due to Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate).
    - Above all, guaranteed preservation and lasts for a long long time.
    - Omnipotent. Omniscience. Omnipresent.
    - I read somewhere that says DMDM Hydantoin is not affected by high temperatures (Within 100°C). Very convenient for me as my early formulations (when I was an absolute noob) needed heat. I am a lazy fcuk, my way is to dump all in and nuke with microwave. The finished products were fine, no funny growth.

    Disclaimer: What is said may merely be my own thinking, experience, opinion, feeling.

    There are people saying DMDM Hydantoin is a lousy biocide and biostatic agent against fungi and yeast. I don't know what the heck they have in their product/s! They could have heavy amount of oats, milk, home brewed tea/coffee/infusion, flowery stuff in there only they know what. I personally saw few people actually put in petals of their favourite flowers. Simultaneously not have enough of that particular preservative. No amount of the best preservative in this galaxy will save them from pretty coloured toxins appearing.

    In addition to that, I make usable samples of only 10g or 20g every time at any given time, and even so I never finish them up in days. I have an unconscious habit of scratching and digging my face if I am nervous. I should be dead or have massive skin infection a long time ago should DMDM Hydantoin fail as biocide and biostatic agent against all sorts of microorganisms. I made some for my friends, they would be blind or would have had skin infection as well.

    There, free advertisement for all DMDM Hydantoin companies. They should sponsor/pay me! LMAO!
  • Thank you very much @Perry. I have two favorites (Germall and Germaben II) and curious to explore. For some reason DMDM has this weird disclaimer for California customers on it’s cancerogenity (makingcosmetics). Same on lotioncrafter. There is no such a disclaimer for Germall. Usually these suppliers are not spreading chemophobic messages because they sell ‘synthetics’. I consider myself a ‘traditional’ formulator with a strong preference for synthetic materials but seeing that message stopped me from buying it. I decided to do some research before purchasing it and never had time (it’s very time consuming, just try to google it, you will have to go through enormous amounts of chemophobia until you get to a reliable source).
  • @Cst4Ms4Tmps4, thank you. Sounds like germaben ii. It’s a nice blend of parabens and a formaldehyde releaser. Great for transparent products but probably will fail if you add petals :) I guess I am then being paid by dow corning then. Can’t have enough of silicones. So, DMDM is my next purchase then.
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