Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Behentrimonium Methosulfate alternative

  • Behentrimonium Methosulfate alternative

    Posted by margi on September 28, 2019 at 1:11 pm

    Any good ideas for a alternative to Benhentrimonium Methosulfate?

    gunther replied 4 years, 2 months ago 7 Members · 17 Replies
  • 17 Replies
  • gunther

    Member
    September 28, 2019 at 11:55 pm

    For what application?
    And why are you looking for alternatives?

    Behentrimonium chloride works more or less the same, and so does Cetrimonium chloride.

  • margi

    Member
    September 30, 2019 at 8:16 pm

    its for a conditioner 
    trying to find something not so expensive if possible

    Gunther

  • unconditional

    Member
    October 1, 2019 at 7:21 am

    Gunther said:

    Behentrimonium chloride works more or less the same, and so does Cetrimonium chloride.

    Does behentrimonium chloride always come with alcohol (ethanol or isopropyl alcohol?)

  • gunther

    Member
    October 3, 2019 at 12:05 am

    Gunther said:

    Behentrimonium chloride works more or less the same, and so does Cetrimonium chloride.

    Does behentrimonium chloride always come with alcohol (ethanol or isopropyl alcohol?)

    You’d need to read out the manufacturer specs.

    Generic Cetrimonium chloride is pretty cheap and works identically to behentrimonium.

  • margi

    Member
    October 3, 2019 at 7:16 pm

    Gunther

    thank you so much gunther

  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4

    Member
    November 11, 2019 at 2:08 pm

    Benhentrimonium Methosulfate that I always found is with some fatty alcohols. This is the reason why BTMS-50 is believed to ’emulsify’ very very high percentage of silicone. It is an illusion and a trickery. 

  • oldperry

    Member
    November 12, 2019 at 1:59 pm

    Or you might try Stearalkonium Chloride.

  • gunther

    Member
    November 13, 2019 at 5:54 pm

    Benhentrimonium Methosulfate that I always found is with some fatty alcohols. This is the reason why BTMS-50 is believed to ’emulsify’ very very high percentage of silicone. It is an illusion and a trickery. 

    So BTMS-50 doesn’t really emulsify silicones?

  • ngarayeva001

    Member
    November 13, 2019 at 10:40 pm

    I have 3% of Cyclopentasiloxane and some dimethicone (either 1 or 2%) in a hair conditioner with BTMS as the only emulsifier. Behentrimonium Chloride does too. I have just checked the one I made in June, and there’s no signs of separation.

  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4

    Member
    November 15, 2019 at 11:32 am

    @Gunther
    It is the fatty alcohol in BTMS-50 that does the trick. Bentrimonium Methosulfate/Chloride does thicken to some degree but not enough which is the reason why there is something else added to it.

    Believe it or not it is viscosity (and yield stress) that counts.

    Behentrimonium Methosulfate/Chloride per se is not a good emulsifier of silicones or any lipid for that matter. There is a valid reason why nonionic surfactants are the best solubiliser/emulsifier of lipids.

    Nonionic > Anionic > Cationic

    I can be wrong but in theory it is and most people use nonionic surfactants as primary emulsifiers. Anionic may be as strong or stronger than nonionic but most nonionic don’t foam so much and less harsh to skin, this is probably the main reason why nonionic is popular.

    Viscosity and yield stress are the key. Carbomer and Xanthan Gum are not emulsifiers but they have incredibly high yield stress.

    Similarly, some people swear by beeswax and waxes.
    likewise, there are still people believing and spreading misinformation of fatty acids/alcohols are emulsifiers. This has been debunked over and over. Fatty acids have that -OH group and hence “acid” but it is too weak to be an emulsifier or surfactant. Some myths simply never die.

    Success of thickeners such as fatty alcohols and waxes depends on the cooling down, hence why the instruction is keep stirring and mixing. They rely on actual thickening. If a medium is thick enough you don’t need an actual emulsifier to suspend stuff.

    Having said that, temperature is irrelevant if Carbomer is used! Of course there are people believing Carbomer is ALSO an emulsifier. Oh well. The easiest evidence is add water, as much as possible and you will soon see something floating. That is not true Scotsman (emulsion). LOL!

    Emulsifier, on the other hand, it emulsifies then it emulsifies. It doesn’t rely on thickening to emulsify. Extreme temperatures may separate an emulsion but does not require constant babysitting like it is needed for fatty alcohols and waxes.

    Suspend is NOT the same as emulsify. Just because lipids are not seen floating doesn’t at all mean they are emulsified.

    Note: The said Carbomer is the good old Carbomer. Not HASE, HUER, Permulan.

  • gunther

    Member
    November 15, 2019 at 6:16 pm

    @Gunther
    It is the fatty alcohol in BTMS-50 that does the trick. Bentrimonium Methosulfate/Chloride does thicken to some degree but not enough which is the reason why there is something else added to it.

    Believe it or not it is viscosity (and yield stress) that counts.

    Behentrimonium Methosulfate/Chloride per se is not a good emulsifier of silicones or any lipid for that matter. There is a valid reason why nonionic surfactants are the best solubiliser/emulsifier of lipids.

    Nonionic > Anionic > Cationic

    I can be wrong but in theory it is and most people use nonionic surfactants as primary emulsifiers. Anionic may be as strong or stronger than nonionic but most nonionic don’t foam so much and less harsh to skin, this is probably the main reason why nonionic is popular.

    Viscosity and yield stress are the key. Carbomer and Xanthan Gum are not emulsifiers but they have incredibly high yield stress.

    Similarly, some people swear by beeswax and waxes.
    likewise, there are still people believing and spreading misinformation of fatty acids/alcohols are emulsifiers. This has been debunked over and over. Fatty acids have that -OH group and hence “acid” but it is too weak to be an emulsifier or surfactant. Some myths simply never die.

    Success of thickeners such as fatty alcohols and waxes depends on the cooling down, hence why the instruction is keep stirring and mixing. They rely on actual thickening. If a medium is thick enough you don’t need an actual emulsifier to suspend stuff.

    Having said that, temperature is irrelevant if Carbomer is used! Of course there are people believing Carbomer is ALSO an emulsifier. Oh well. The easiest evidence is add water, as much as possible and you will soon see something floating. That is not true Scotsman (emulsion). LOL!

    Emulsifier, on the other hand, it emulsifies then it emulsifies. It doesn’t rely on thickening to emulsify. Extreme temperatures may separate an emulsion but does not require constant babysitting like it is needed for fatty alcohols and waxes.

    Suspend is NOT the same as emulsify. Just because lipids are not seen floating doesn’t at all mean they are emulsified.

    Note: The said Carbomer is the good old Carbomer. Not HASE, HUER, Permulan.

    I can relate to that as I had trouble getting a liquid spray-on BTMS conditioner to emulsify silicones. Some (unemulfified) dimethicone droplets always rose to the liquid surface, despite vigoruous mixing.
    Being liquid it had little viscosity to keep the silicone droplets suspended.

    Can you compensate for that by just adding more cationic emulsifier to properly emulsify silicones?
    What would be a good ratio?

  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4

    Member
    November 17, 2019 at 3:25 am

    @Gunther

    Oops, too late for me to edit what I wrote! I meant fatty alcohols may have -OH group and generally believed that -OH is the magic to binding/attracting water, but in reality fatty alcohols are too weak to be considered as emulsifier and do not emulsify anything. Having -OH group also don’t make them behave like Glycerol. Too weak. They are “co-emulsifier” instead, kind of like stunt double or reserved player.

    When you say BTMS do you mean purely BTMS and nothing else? Not BTMS-25, BTMS-50, BTMS something?

    I have no experience with BTMS. As mentioned before I do not get pure BTMS.

    If BTAC or Behentrimonium Chrloride, even at 15% is still pretty watery. The sample I made was BTAC and water, nothing else. I am a purist and I do not really do knockout experiment. More like I am extremely curious to know how each one behave individually, by doing this I am directly busting myths and see through marketing rubbish on my own.

    I don’t know whether or not it is all right to have that much of any Behentrimonium in leave-on product. The BTAC I tried at 15% was just for hair, it sucks big time by the way. It cannot be used alone like that, bad spreading, end up using more than necessary (my educated guess is since it is cationic it ‘sticks’ to the slightly negatively charged hair and seeming gets ‘consumed’. Anionic tends to be smooth and provides more slip/spread due to same charge repels).

    However, BTMS-25 or BTMS-50 is said to be able to be used as it is, mix it with water only, as hair conditioner may be due to the addition of fatty alcohol. I have BTMS-50 but I am not bothered enough to try it out because I am nearly bald. LOL! As for the skin…not good for me in this tropical climate, too rich, too sweaty, too uncomfortable even at very very low concentration. BTAC without fatty alcohol is also too rich, too bad for me.

    You want to make a spray, eh. You need emulsifier that is liquid at room temperature. Sorbitan (Span) and Polysorbate (Tween). General rule is if you want sprayable emulsion then you use liquid emulsifier/s, at YOUR room temperature (wherever you reside). I don’t like spray stuff but I use Polysorbate because I use dropper bottle, it is almost impossible to impossible to squeeze anything out should I use emulsifiers such as Emulsifying Wax. If use less of it I might as well don’t use it at all because there is a minimum amount of emulsifier to properly emulsify something.

    I do not know what silicone you use but you can use this site (https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/calculators/HLBCalculator.aspx) as your assistant. Might not be accurate due to many variables, at least it reduces much headache and guesswork.

    I can’t precisely answer you the ratio as to how much emulsifier to use. I was hunting for the calculation too but to no avail. I eventually understood the reason why. There are many variables.

    Temperature could also be the deciding factor. For example the room temperature here is 30°C I don’t need to heat anything much and mixing lipids is rather easy because most things which are solid in room temperature in temperate climate (about 24°C) are liquid here, I never see solid coconut oil in my life except in shopping complex, shops, pharmacies, or places where it is air-conditioned.

    Another thing is mixing. Because the temperature is high I do not truly need immersion blender nor homogeniser to make tiny tiny lipid droplets in order to make the most stable emulsion possible. All I use is a pathetic milk frother, nothing fancy and nothing exorbitant!  :D In order for me to sleep soundly I add Xanthan Gum as stabiliser/suspender.

    My very early tests there was no emulsifier needed. If emulsifier is needed it will be way way less than most of us are ‘forced’ to using. The emulsions I made were with sonicator. That device is stupid magical! Never mind the temperature differences as those emulsions appeared to be insanely stable! I don’t know the scientific witchcraft but I do know that cavitation removes air surrounding lipids. Maybe I answered myself.  :/ The exact same effect can be replicated in a vacuum chamber. The deceptive emulsion can then be bubbled, vigorously shaken, and no separation afterwards. Maybe there was separation, might be too small for my demi-blind eyes to see.

  • gunther

    Member
    November 17, 2019 at 4:59 pm

    @Gunther

    You want to make a spray, eh. You need emulsifier that is liquid at room temperature. Sorbitan (Span) and Polysorbate (Tween). General rule is if you want sprayable emulsion then you use liquid emulsifier/s, at YOUR room temperature (wherever you reside). I don’t like spray stuff but I use Polysorbate because I use dropper bottle, it is almost impossible to impossible to squeeze anything out should I use emulsifiers such as Emulsifying Wax. If use less of it I might as well don’t use it at all because there is a minimum amount of emulsifier to properly emulsify something.

    May I ask which Tween/Span did you use (i.e. 20, 60, 80) and how much is usually needed to emulsify silicones?

  • bahey

    Member
    December 29, 2019 at 6:39 am

    what is the maximum Cyclopentasiloxane ratio could emulsified BTMS in liquid solution?

  • bahey

    Member
    December 30, 2019 at 9:06 am
    how could i add cyclopentasiloxane to this formula without separation problems ?
    please advice

  • bahey

    Member
    December 30, 2019 at 9:06 am

    @Gunther

    Oops, too late for me to edit what I wrote! I meant fatty alcohols may have -OH group and generally believed that -OH is the magic to binding/attracting water, but in reality fatty alcohols are too weak to be considered as emulsifier and do not emulsify anything. Having -OH group also don’t make them behave like Glycerol. Too weak. They are “co-emulsifier” instead, kind of like stunt double or reserved player.

    When you say BTMS do you mean purely BTMS and nothing else? Not BTMS-25, BTMS-50, BTMS something?

    I have no experience with BTMS. As mentioned before I do not get pure BTMS.

    If BTAC or Behentrimonium Chrloride, even at 15% is still pretty watery. The sample I made was BTAC and water, nothing else. I am a purist and I do not really do knockout experiment. More like I am extremely curious to know how each one behave individually, by doing this I am directly busting myths and see through marketing rubbish on my own.

    I don’t know whether or not it is all right to have that much of any Behentrimonium in leave-on product. The BTAC I tried at 15% was just for hair, it sucks big time by the way. It cannot be used alone like that, bad spreading, end up using more than necessary (my educated guess is since it is cationic it ‘sticks’ to the slightly negatively charged hair and seeming gets ‘consumed’. Anionic tends to be smooth and provides more slip/spread due to same charge repels).

    However, BTMS-25 or BTMS-50 is said to be able to be used as it is, mix it with water only, as hair conditioner may be due to the addition of fatty alcohol. I have BTMS-50 but I am not bothered enough to try it out because I am nearly bald. LOL! As for the skin…not good for me in this tropical climate, too rich, too sweaty, too uncomfortable even at very very low concentration. BTAC without fatty alcohol is also too rich, too bad for me.

    You want to make a spray, eh. You need emulsifier that is liquid at room temperature. Sorbitan (Span) and Polysorbate (Tween). General rule is if you want sprayable emulsion then you use liquid emulsifier/s, at YOUR room temperature (wherever you reside). I don’t like spray stuff but I use Polysorbate because I use dropper bottle, it is almost impossible to impossible to squeeze anything out should I use emulsifiers such as Emulsifying Wax. If use less of it I might as well don’t use it at all because there is a minimum amount of emulsifier to properly emulsify something.

    I do not know what silicone you use but you can use this site (https://www.wholesalesuppliesplus.com/calculators/HLBCalculator.aspx) as your assistant. Might not be accurate due to many variables, at least it reduces much headache and guesswork.

    I can’t precisely answer you the ratio as to how much emulsifier to use. I was hunting for the calculation too but to no avail. I eventually understood the reason why. There are many variables.

    Temperature could also be the deciding factor. For example the room temperature here is 30°C I don’t need to heat anything much and mixing lipids is rather easy because most things which are solid in room temperature in temperate climate (about 24°C) are liquid here, I never see solid coconut oil in my life except in shopping complex, shops, pharmacies, or places where it is air-conditioned.

    Another thing is mixing. Because the temperature is high I do not truly need immersion blender nor homogeniser to make tiny tiny lipid droplets in order to make the most stable emulsion possible. All I use is a pathetic milk frother, nothing fancy and nothing exorbitant!  :D In order for me to sleep soundly I add Xanthan Gum as stabiliser/suspender.

    My very early tests there was no emulsifier needed. If emulsifier is needed it will be way way less than most of us are ‘forced’ to using. The emulsions I made were with sonicator. That device is stupid magical! Never mind the temperature differences as those emulsions appeared to be insanely stable! I don’t know the scientific witchcraft but I do know that cavitation removes air surrounding lipids. Maybe I answered myself.  :/ The exact same effect can be replicated in a vacuum chamber. The deceptive emulsion can then be bubbled, vigorously shaken, and no separation afterwards. Maybe there was separation, might be too small for my demi-blind eyes to see.

    how could i add cyclopentasiloxane to this formula without separation problems ?
    please advice

  • gunther

    Member
    January 2, 2020 at 6:38 pm

    BTMS doesn’t really emulsify silicones, they are just suspended because the formulation is thick enough.

    You may wish to search for an old post of mine about a Croda formulation that claimed to hold about 50% cyclomethicone with BTMS. But at the end only experimentation can tell.

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