Vitamin c serum help

amitvedakaramitvedakar Member
edited August 1 in Formulating
My formula
Ascorbic acid 17%
Vitamin E 1%
Wheat germ oil !%
Propylene glycole  10%
Glycerin 3%
Dimethicone 350 1%

Water to 100 ml.

My problem mixing vitmain E & Wheat germ oil.
I dissolved oil in benzyl alcohol then add PG. but Oil returns.

Top vitamin c serum brands are made of Ascorbic acid..
 
I also want to add Ferulic acid later.
Well  how to dissolve oil & what base should be?
Is PG 10% enough?
Does Serum means Syrupy liquid?
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Comments

  • "but Oil returns."- You are trying to mix water and oil without an emulsifier. It must separate.

    "Top vitamin c serum brands are made of Ascorbic acid.." - Such a vague statement... Doesn't mean they are good.

    "Well  how to dissolve oil & what base should be?" - Add an emulsifier.

    "Is PG 10% enough? " - Enough for what? What is the function of PG in your formula? Is is a preservative? I am not sure I would rely on 10% of PG as a preservative.

    "Does Serum means Syrupy liquid?" - It's a marketing term. It can mean whatever you want it to mean. There are silicone based serums, oil based serums, water based serums.

    Want a quick fix? Get inspiration here: https://store.deciem.com/crossbar/cookieconsent?ReturnUrl=https%3A%2F%2Ftheordinary.com%2Fproduct%2Frdn-ascorbic-acid-8pct-alpha-arbutin-2pct-30ml
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited August 1
    @amitvedakar:

    Why complicate your formula for the sake of adding 1% Wheat Germ Oil?  The addition of oils requires that you also addd either a solubilizer or emulsifier.

    But, if you are intent on including Vitamin E, Wheat Germ Oil and Dimethicone in your formula, then your best bet for emulsifiers would be Glyceryl Oleate or Sucrose Stearate ... neither will thicken the formula.

    No, you do not have enough Propylene Glycol at 10% ... you will want more on the order of 30%.

    If you want to thicken it up. hydroxypropylmethylcellulose works well in formulations with a high proportion of propylene glycol.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Also, the L-ascorbic acid will not be stable in such an aqueous medium. I would research this topic as there are numerous previous posts regarding its instability. You will see browning of the solution fairly quickly.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    Oh boy.. I have a couple comments to start 

    1. Which form  of Vitamin E are you using? Typically when we post on this forum you'll get best responses  if you post INCI names. Vitamin E could mean Tocopherol, Tocopheryl Acetate, etc. 
    2. you have no emulsifier to help your 'vitamin E' , oil, and dimethicone  so yes things will separate
    3. If you are using benzyl alcohol to help incorporate ingredients then it is now part of your formula and you need to factor that percentage in.

  • Glyceryl Oleate? Hm... I thought it's low HLB W/O emulsifier and only acts as a stabiliser in O/W emulsions. You leave and learn!
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    I thought so too. But hypothetically, I can imagine that in a 30% propylene glycol solution apparent HLBs should be different (higher) and glyceryl oleate perform "better" since it has a higher solubility in the not so aqueous water phase...
    As a side note: Sucrose stearate has not one HLB since sucrose stearate is not a single molecular entity in a chemical sense but, especially if used as food additive, a mixture of either mono- to heptastearates (see also food additive E 473) or mono- and diester mixed with residual glyceryl mono-, di-, and tristearate (usually referred to as sucroglycerides aka E 474). Hence, "sucrose stearate" can cover every HLB from 1 to 16 (HLB 16 is hypothetical and would be pure monoester, HLB 15 is the commercial highest grade with >70% sucrose monostearate, HLB 11 is ~50-60% monoester and ~30% diester, HLB 6 is each ~30-40% mono- and diesters, HLB 3 is roughly equal amounts of mono- to tetraesters, and HLB 1 about equal amounts of tetra- to heptaesters according to THIS publication). -> Question @MarkBroussard: Which sucrose stearate are you referring to?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Sisterna SP70C
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • DtdangDtdang Member
    @amitvedakar, ascorbic acid is stable in the acidic environments with pH< 5
    you can try using emulsifier, Sepiplus 400. It is freedom formulation.

  • Thank you all.
    I omit Wheat germ & dimethicone.
    PG for moisturizing & I thought only water base not good for application & feel.
    Vitamin E liquid is DL alha tocopherol acetate.
    can i use vitamin as powder.
    Vitamin E acetate powder comes in 50%. (solubility checking).

    I also dissolve LAA  17% in IPA 20 to 30% & other PG to make 100. solution found no color fade for two month. but can apply on face.

    I found sodium gluconate in some serum formula as stabilizer. but they use derivative of vitamin c. does it work in Ascorbic acid formula.

    Emulsifier suggested by @MarkBroussard ; & @Dtdang are new for me.


    I have lot to work on this.

    Thank You all once again for taking interest in my problem.
  • @amitvedakar, don’t start with vitamin c serum. LAA is utterly unstable. You should understand how to make a simple and stable emulsion  first. Again if you want to create a product the first step is to analyze as many commercial products as possible and understand what they have in common. You are trying to mix water and oil without an emulsifier and add 20% of humectants. I don’t even see a preservative in your formula. Start from the beginning not from the middle. 
  • If you absolutely need to have that Vitamin C serum, dissolve LAA in PG and don’t add anything else at all. Alternatively dissolve LAA in dimethicone and also don’t add anything else. It’s not going to be a pleasant product but at least relatively stable and safe. You won’t generally need a preservative if there’s absolutely no water. Check the link I posted above.
  • @ngarayeva001 ; thank you.
    Link info Lot to learn.
    Preservative Should be Sod. Methyl Paraben+ SPP.
    I avoided first because I want to try primary mixing.    
     
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @amitvedakar:

    Vitamin C (L-Ascorbic Acid) is very unstable in water ... it oxidizes very qucikly.  Vitamin E in the form of Alpha Tocopherol helps stabilize the L-Ascorbic Acid.  Ferulic Acid + Alpha Tocopherol better stabilizes the LAA.

    (1)   HIgh percentages of glycols, such as PG or Ethyoxydiglycol, are added to Vitamin C serum products not as moisturizers, but to reduce the water activity to extend the period over with the Vitamin C oxidizes.  You'll need to add at least 30% Glycol to a Vitamin C serum.

    (2)   Tocopherol Acetate will not stabilize LAA, so you're not using the correct form of Vitamin E.

    (3)   If you are going to add Alpha Tocopherol as your only oil ingredient, then you are better off using a solubilizer ... Poly Suga Mulse D9 would be a recommendation.


    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • Thank you very much for your guidance.
    At present I have limited material.
    Formula makeover required.
    So arranging material and  restart.
    Meanwhile  I try for  water qty to  solublize LAA & remaining  PG.   
    I have also Tween80 & PEG 40 Hydrogenated castor oil. Try to solublize vitamin E acetate.
    Thank you all for taking interest & valuable guidance.


  • DtdangDtdang Member
    @amitvedakar you do not have to use hlb system. It is freedom formulation 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Dtdang:

    What on earth do you mean by "freedom formulation"?
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • tocophrol acetate  is soluble in PEG 40 Hydrogenated castor oil. (1:5)
    but adding Water make the solution hazy. 
  • amitvedakaramitvedakar Member
    edited August 8
    What about 3-O-Ethyl Ascorbic Acid?
    above ingredient suggested by supplier.
    and adding Hyaluronic Acid instead of vitamin E.
    well  the cost of alpha tocopherol & Dl alpha tocopherol  is 4 fold.
    Hyaluronic Acid is not cheap too. but available in gm. and required percentage is less.
    there are three types available. would go for middle (Medium molecular weight).
    What are suggestions/ Guidances?
  • I heard about 3-O-Ethyl Ascorbic Acid and tried a couple of commercial products made with it. I however noticed they were anhydrous. Is it water soluble? Not all forms of vitamin c are water soluble.
  • I heard about 3-O-Ethyl Ascorbic Acid and tried a couple of commercial products made with it. I however noticed they were anhydrous. Is it water soluble? Not all forms of vitamin c are water soluble.

      It is water soluble.  My supplier can also supply MAP--ASCOBAT-C.
    He suggested 3-5% MAP. Is MAP effective alternative?
    My 20% LAA solution has 2 pH.  How to get pH 4.

    Preservative SMP & SPP.

    Does BHT & BHA work here?

  • Is MAP an effective alternative.. It depends what you mean by effective. If your question is whether MAP makes skin lighter (that's a typical claim) my answer it no, it is not. 

    To elevate pH you can either use sodium hydroxide solution or triethanolamine. 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @amitvedakar

    If you want to make a MAP-based, Vitamin C/Hyaluronic Acid Serum ... Yes, 3% to 5% MAP is just fine.  The native pH of MAP is in the range 6.0.  It is water-soluble and stable, so you will not really need/benefit from BHA/BHT both of which are oil-soluble and will just complicate your formula. 

    As for Hyaluronic Acid, if you can get it, use a combination of Super Low Molecular Weight HA with a mid-weight HA.  The SLMW will penetrate the dermis and the mid-weight will form a TEWL reducing film on the surface of the skin.

    Your formula could be as simple as:

    Water
    MAP (5%)
    HA (SLMW) 0.3%
    HA (800 - 1200 kDa) 0.7%
    Preservative 
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • Thank you @MarkBroussard. for Your guidance  on HA.
     
    Feel great  receiving All Guidance & help.
  • What do you think about adding L-glutahione in above suggested formula?

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Of course.  I just finished making a Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid) powder formulation for a client that included L-Glutathione as an ingredient.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • MajmanMajman Member
    @markbroussard so this will help lighten the face yeah? Adding L-gluthathione
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Yes, L-glutathione is used as a lightening ingredient.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    @MarkBroussard Are you intentionally avoiding a clear answer to @Majman's question? The way I understand his/her question is whether or not it actually reduces pigmentation. Your answer is simply agreeing that it is marketed for said effect.
    I don't know if glutathione (GSH) really works topically. In theory it is a good antioxidant and it reduces oxidised ascorbic acid forms in vivo. On the other hand, GSH is a large molecule with several charges and hence unlikely to penetrate deep enough (even oral bioavailability is piss poor). It seems a legit assumption that, if GSH is intended to be used for chemical reactions rather than pharmacological ones (i.e. involving living cells and a functional redox metabolism), a replacement with the smaller, cheaper and less charged N-acetylcysteine will give improved effects for less $$. Label-wise, "NAC" instead of "glutathione" just doesn't sound as fancy and might even cause people to wonder since NAC is a common (though not very effective) cough medicine. An additional consideration should be the source of GSH because often enough, the product is actually the oxidised form GSSG.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited August 10
    I tried to research it previously because one the forum members (who I advised against applying an insane 20% monobenzone moisturizer on her face) asked me of my opinion on glutathione injections. I couldn’t find any proof that even injections or oral treatment work. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3162377/
    It either has effect on limited number of subjects or no effects comparing to placebo. In some studies glutathione pills (500 mg for 6 weeks) resulted reduced level of melanin on half of face, which isn’t a desirable effect I believe. There’s more proof that NAG+Niacinamide works (although I would not claim it as a fact).

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Exactly my point.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • MajmanMajman Member
    Perhaps cos you guys are white, you don't see much difference because amongst blacks , people make bleaching creams and they appear to work and not all use hydroquinone so I'm wondering when you all day alpha Arbutin doesn't do much and all that, so what ingredients could those who make bleaching creams be using 
  • MajmanMajman Member
    Some have credited using insanely high dosage of glutathione injections and high dosage of vitamin c to attain brighter complexion along with bleaching creams 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @majman:

    The evidence is not definitively conclusive:  www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5808366/

    Yes, it appears to be safe to use in topicals and may have some effect.  There are a number of ingredients for evening skin tone that can be used in combination as they have different modes of action.  IMHO it's kind of crazy to administer L-Glutathione IV drips to try to lighten skin tone ... as though there is something wrong with the skin you're born with.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • I Think any Skin lighting ingredient only work, if people have deficiency of that ingredient. Is that true?
  • @Majman, please don’t think that white people don’t understand you struggle. I am caucasian mixed with Russian. I am type III photo type on Fitzpatrick scale. However for my Russian relatives I was never white enough and I heard a lot of rather diminishing comments. I grew up with an obsession to lighten my skin (that no one understands because I am ‘white). So, you can be ‘wrong shade of white’.  I read many studies because I was interested in this topic and my conclusion is you can’t get significant results without using potentially dangerous methods such as hydroquinone. You can even skin tone out by using AHAs, applying broad spectrum sunscreen and avoiding sun exposure. But you won’t get visible results without risk. Neither with vitamin c, nor with alpha arbutin. You can use vitamin c and market it to your clients as a ‘brightening product’ but as a formulator you must understand what is working and what is not.
  • Just to clarify, hydroquinone isn’t dangerous if used below 2% with a sunscreen but the bleaching creams that give you ‘several shades lighter’ effect are very far from 2%.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Benzoyl peroxide works. Here in CH, only up to 5% are allowed and considered as drug requiring registration. On the other hand, I've seen 20% creams being sold in supermarkets on Sri Lanka.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited August 11
    I Think any Skin lighting ingredient only work, if people have deficiency of that ingredient. Is that true?
    No, incorrect.  OTC cosmetic skin lightening/evening skin tone/reducing hyperpigmentation is all about using topicals to reduce melanin synthesis.  It has nothing to do with deficiencies.

    Skin bleaching is something completely different ... @Majman ... some of the techniques used include products containing mercury, high loads of hydroquinone, the IV drips and others that are just plain dangerous.  Most all of these products are banned in the US and Europe.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • Thank you @MarkBroussard ; for clearing my doubts.
    Hydroquinone is prescribed pharma ingredient here in my country.

  • Can I  choose Ascorbic acid 15% +ferulic 1% + HA 0.3%+ Niacianmide 2%
    OR MAP +ferulic+HA+Niacinamide.

    As i read HA + Niacinamide good combination while Niacinamide can affect integrity of the Vitamin C.
  • That study on niacinamide and LAA incompatibility was done under extreme conditions and isn't reflect the reality. The only concern for this combination is the pH. LAA performs the best at acidic pH (I believe it's 3.5) while niacinamide at neutral.  You can solve this by using MAP. By the way it isn't as stable as suppliers say. It oxidizes, maybe slower than LAA but it still does, so you should add antioxidants.
  • my addition of  Sodium betabisulfite ?
    Preservative: Phenoxyethyanol & Potassium sorbate.

    What do you think?
  • DtdangDtdang Member
    Vit A is not surviving under pH <5.9. But it will be stable at pH >=6
    HA is working the best at pK {3.6, 4.1}
  • MajmanMajman Member
    Thanks @ngarayeva001 and @MarkBroussard It's pretty prevalent amongst blacks, I guess because of law of opposite attraction or something but it's causing me stress because when you say vitamin c is brightening and you make a serum that doesn't do that, it makes you look like a fraud or incompetent and stuff. 

    How can you determine a product has steroids, mercury etc because people buy these creams and they appear to glow luminous, have poreless skin and on the ingredient label, u see AHAs, fruit extracts and petrolatum and maybe stearic acid and wonder how? 

    Due to popular demand, I'm equally looking for a way to make my vitamin c serum lightening  

    And is these mercury and other harmful ingredients responsible for giving those who use it the poreless skin they have even though usually within 6 months, they tend to start having bad reactions to it and ruins their skin. 

    I'm just caving under pressure 
  • MajmanMajman Member
    Also, with black people, even the use of hydroquinone even at 2% on a long term could cause ochronosis so I'm confused, I guess I'd check some of the bleaching creams ingredients and bring it here for your analyses 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @majman:

    Without having lists of ingredients from specific products, it is not really possible to know anything other than broad generalities.  If you post an LOI then we can have a discussion that is not just speculative and hypothetical.

    Brightening and Bleaching are two very different things ... which of the two are you referring to?  Vitamin C will brighten skin, but it certainly will not bleach it.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    Provides Formulation Development and Lab-Scale Contract Manufacturing Services.  See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

  • Oral Vitamin C megadoses were already tried in the 70s, and no positive effects on skin were noticed, despite absorption being guaranteed in oral products, unlike topical products.

    Vitamin C does nothing beneficial to the skin.
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