How to properly hydrate and dissolve Polyquaternium-10?

I tried leaving PQ-10 in bare water overnight
also heating and stirring it
but it always seems to form some thick, non uniform clumps.

Maybe it has to do with it being too concentrated?
I added 0.7% PQ-10, but only with 50% water (1.4% overall concentration) to allow room for other liquid ingredients to be added later.

Any ideas or suggestions?

Comments

  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Try a very mild alkaline neutralisation if your formulation isn't averse to it though you can always adjust the pH at the end. I have observed the same and realised that an immediate and a very mild alkaline neutralisation will help you get a very uniform dispersion. I add it in my hot process shampoo during cool down phase mixed with Methocel 40-202, no issues at all.
  • This is very strange. I used polyquat 10 of 3 different suppliers and never had issues with it. What I normally do, I slurry it in glycerin like xanthan, then I add it to water (not even 50% but maybe 20) and stir at low speed for 10 minutes. And even when there are some minor clumps they hydrate in the product overnight. Try to slurry it. 4 parts of glycerin to 1 part of polyquat 10.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Chemist77 said:
    Try a very mild alkaline neutralisation if your formulation isn't averse to it though you can always adjust the pH at the end. I have observed the same and realised that an immediate and a very mild alkaline neutralisation will help you get a very uniform dispersion. I add it in my hot process shampoo during cool down phase mixed with Methocel 40-202, no issues at all.
    Is it normal for it to thicken right after adding the alkali?
    I tried
    water  50%
    Polyquaternium-10  0.7%
    TEA  0.5 ml
    pH was about 9. Is that OK?


    This is very strange. I used polyquat 10 of 3 different suppliers and never had issues with it. What I normally do, I slurry it in glycerin like xanthan, then I add it to water (not even 50% but maybe 20) and stir at low speed for 10 minutes. And even when there are some minor clumps they hydrate in the product overnight. Try to slurry it. 4 parts of glycerin to 1 part of polyquat 10.
    May I ask for how long do you leave PQ-10 in glycerin?
    I left it for several hours, and the slurry became very thick, almost solid with a yellow/brown color.
  • I just mix it and add right away. How much PQ10, glycerin and water did you use? I am quite surprised and want to run an experiment. I will post a picture.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited July 30
    Hi @Gunther, I slurried 1.5% of PQ10 in 4% of glycerin and added to water (qs to 100). I didn’t even used an overhead stirrer, just mixed it with a spatula for a couple of minutes.
     There are some air bubbles obviously but no clumps at all. Please let me know whether  this process works for you.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    I just mix it and add right away. How much PQ10, glycerin and water did you use? I am quite surprised and want to run an experiment. I will post a picture.
    I left glycerin+PQ10 standing for several hours, so it became solid.
    Now I will try adding it to water right after a couple minutes and post back.
    Thanks for the suggestion.
  • svensven Member
    Very strange. I just springle on water mix for 30 minutes and heat to 70C. Never had a problem.
  • This morning
    no bubbles and you can see it dissolved completely.
  • svensven Member
    Can it be that we use different pq 10 with different molecular weights?
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @Gunther I just sprinkle PQ-10 in water and a very very low dosage of an alkali which immediately thickens the solution. It is clear as well; based on samples being churned out in the lab, can't afford overnight and hourly waiting for wetting :smile:

  • GuntherGunther Member
    Chemist77 said:
    @Gunther I just sprinkle PQ-10 in water and a very very low dosage of an alkali which immediately thickens the solution. It is clear as well; based on samples being churned out in the lab, can't afford overnight and hourly waiting for wetting :smile:

    What happens if you don't add an alkali?
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Well then I guess you need to follow precisely what @ngarayeva001 suggested. It will just sit at the bottom and after absorbing water, it will become lumpy. Extra work then to make it homogenous. 
  • By the way you don’t even need to wait for several minutes. Just slurry it and add. And then mix. There were no clumps after 5 minutes. I just posted a next day photo because there were air bubbles there on the first day.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Chemist77 said:
    @Gunther I just sprinkle PQ-10 in water and a very very low dosage of an alkali which immediately thickens the solution. It is clear as well; based on samples being churned out in the lab, can't afford overnight and hourly waiting for wetting :smile:

    Thank you
    May I ask what's a nice, tiny alkali dosage?
    I tried
    Water about 50%
    PQ-10 0.7%
    TEA 0.5%

    pH rised to 9, which needed quite a bit of citric acid to bring it back and ended up thickening the end formulation too much (maybe TEA citrate being a salt thickens SLES just as NaCl does)
    How much alkali do you tipically use?

    By the way you don’t even need to wait for several minutes. Just slurry it and add. And then mix. There were no clumps after 5 minutes. I just posted a next day photo because there were air bubbles there on the first day.
    Thanks a lot. I will try pouring it right away and then report back.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    I have 18% solution of sodium hydroxide and if I do the proper weighing it will be probably 0.01% approximately. I don't keep TEA in my lab generally, so it's either that alkali solution or AMP-95 Ultra PC 2000. 
  • GuntherGunther Member
    edited August 22
    According to Dow,
    You must first prepare a 2% solution by stirring for 45-60 minutes

    In a separate vessel, prepare the 2% solution of UCARE™ Polymer by mixing the ingredients of Phase E (Polyquaternium 10) and stirring until a clear, homogenous, slightly viscous solution is obtained (45 – 60 minutes).

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