A view that Chemists shouldn't formulate natural skincare. Only cellular biologists.

crystabelcrystabel Member
edited May 2019 in Formulating
I came accross this article via google scholar.  I was wondering what the opinion  was from Chemists that formulate natural cosmetics?

https://www.oumere.com/blogs/news/your-natural-non-toxic-skin-care-is-extremely-cytotoxic

Comments

  • em88em88 Member
    Don't waste your time with these kind of advertising articles. 
  • BubblesBubbles Member
    this is marketing material.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2019
    If someone is trying to sell you something, their opinion about a subject should be viewed suspiciously. This is not to say that the person is lying, but you can be certain you are not getting the full picture of whatever subject they are opining on.

    I was a biology major then switched to chemistry in my final year in college. Every chemistry major had to take biology too and had to learn how to read biology research papers. Her claims about the abilities of different scientists are ridiculous.   

    Also, practically nothing I learned in biology or chemistry was directly helpful in my job as a cosmetic chemist or formulator. College does not teach you about specific ingredients, formulating, what's best for skin or hair or anything else about making products.

    There are some valid points about essential oils, extracts, etc. but there is a lot of BS too. For example physical scrubs do not cause cell death & foaming has nothing to do with surfactant's "destruction of skin"

    Overall, I find the author of this paper to be immature and insecure.
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2019
    this is written by someone who has no experience in the industry whatsoever,  whose deductive reasoning skills are very poor, and despite having a master's degree in a hard science, is apparently unaware that natural hormonal changes can cause changes in skin temperament over time
    what a load of cobblers
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    also, I am all for making web pages legible and find tiny text irritatingly hard to read, but this website goes to the other extreme - the pictures and font size are ENORMOUS on my screen
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • I mean... their cleanser has coco betaine...
    Cosmetic Product Development
    Sussex Research Laboratories Inc.
    www.sussex-research.com
  • Very confusing article. At least they said that essential oils are cytotoxic and witch hazel has no place in modern skincare.
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Think the guy got confused between witch hazel and witchcraft ??
  • GuntherGunther Member
    They are dishonest too

    They "forgot"to mention that their cleanser contains NaOH or something alkaline enough to saponify oils

    INGREDIENTS:
    Aloe barbadensis leaf juice*, water*, watermelon seed oil*, grapeseed oil*, castor oil*, calendula oil*, walnut oil*, Camellia Japonica oil*, coco betaine*, cocaminodopropylamine oxide*, phenyoxyethanol, sorbic acid*, caprylyl glycol*
    https://www.oumere.com/pages/ingredients-oil-dissolution-theory



    Soap?
    It's funny because they disregard soap because of it's high pH

    7. Foaming agents in cleansers

    Foaming cleansers are destructive to the skin because they weaken the very defense that protects skin from bacteria: it’s pH. Foaming cleansers are alkaline, and take your skin from a healthy, bacteria-fighting acidity, to a weak alkaline state that is vulnerable to bacteria. Those with bacterial acne and other skin ailments have a skin whose pH is too high, which breaks skin cells down. I always tell people, cleansing your skin will not cure acne, but using the wrong cleanser can create acne (or make existing acne worse).

    https://www.oumere.com/blogs/news/your-natural-non-toxic-skin-care-is-extremely-cytotoxic



    Aloe barbadensis (Aloe vera) leaf juice?

    They don't seem to realize that the International Agency for Research on Cancer IARC lists Aloe Vera whole leaf extract as a Class 2B possible carcinogen

    https://monographs.iarc.fr/list-of-classifications-volumes/


    Group 2B: The agent is possibly carcinogenic to humans.

    There is limited evidence of carcinogenicity in humans and less than sufficient evidence in experimental animals. It may also be used if there is inadequate evidence in humans but sufficient evidence in experimental animals. Occasionally, an agent (or mixture) may be placed in group 2B if there is inadequate evidence in humans and less than sufficient evidence in experimental animals but there is supporting evidence of carcinogenicity from mechanistic and other relevant data. An agent or a mixture may also be classified in this category solely on the basis of strong evidence of carcinogenicity from mechanistic and other relevant data

    https://monographs.iarc.fr/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/CurrentPreamble.pdf


  • DtdangDtdang Member
    Do not let someone ‘s opinions stop your interests. If you are interested in skincare formulation you should do and learn.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2019
    @Dtdang - of course, being misinformed about a subject is usually worse than being uninformed about a subject.

  • DtdangDtdang Member
    The article has some valuable points:
    we need to understand the % fatty acids profile of natural oils we used to formulate. Never overload the oleic acids that can cause acne, dark spots,...we also need to understand the active ingredients that can effect the skin in the good ways.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    She has some good points regarding her list of "do not included ingredients" ... Essential Oils, unbalanced Linoleic/Oleic Oil combinations, overall pH balance and her products are well-formulated for the most part.  They appear to be 2 phase systems as she does not use emulsifiers, so they must be shake well before use to mix the oil and water phases.

    Where she is going off the rails, and is it pure marketing schtick on her part, is that chemists do not have the skill set to formulate good cosmetic products nor understand skin biology as she completely disregards the fact that most all learning is self-taught and is a life long experience.  The implication is that because you have a degree in chemistry, that you are incapable of learning or understanding skin biology and that you stop learning at the end of your degree, which is patently absurd.  But, again, that is part of her marketing.

    I do have to laugh at her dig at the profit motivation of skin care developers when her own products are priced at $100 to $200 per ounce and require no more skill than pouring a fixed set ingredients into a beaker.  All one need do is some research on ingredients and ingredient combinations to develop a similar suite of products ... basically, that's something any trained scientist in chemistry, biology and related fields is capable of doing.  I mean, how many years of scientific training does one need to come to the conclusion that putting Cilantro Extract in a skin care concoction could be beneficial to the skin?

    By the way, someone should inform her that Aloe Vera Juice has absolutely no scientifically-proven skin care benefit, and can potentially be harmful if it is not aloin-free.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • OH dear, love apoptosis is not cell death caused from Essential Oils, apoptosis  is programmed cell death. Just like when leaves fall of a tree. The proper word for cell death, meaning a cell that is killed (by as you say Essential Oils) is called autolysis and lysis being the general word for cell death i.e.rupture of the cell wall or membrane.
    So when you come to a forum such as this why don't you sharpen up your own skills with in your own specialisation.
    I have studied chemistry, zoology, marine biology, environmental science, did a PhD and then a Research Fellow. However, the chemists on this site know a lot more than I do most of the time.
    I suggest you find your own cellular forum and stop saying words you don't know what they mean and write a real paper from a peer reviewed journal. Then when you have written that and had it critiqued by professionals in the field, then come and talk to us.
    Until that time, stop being sooo rude to my well -educated colleagues.
    What an embarrassment!!

    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2019
    @"Dr Catherine Pratt" - I don't think the author was the one who posted the article. It was put up by someone who stumbled onto it while doing some Google searching.
  • HerbnerdHerbnerd Member
    edited May 2019
    Perry said:
    @Dtdang - of course, being misinformed about a subject is usually worse than being uninformed about a subject.

    So true - Misinformed means you are arguing with a brick wall. At least you can educate the uninformed.
  • Oh you guys know I get a bit Passionate about things!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • Thank you Perry for your answer, very informative to hear about how the subjects cross over in the final year and your opinion on exfoliation.
    Perry said:
    If someone is trying to sell you something, their opinion about a subject should be viewed suspiciously. This is not to say that the person is lying, but you can be certain you are not getting the full picture of whatever subject they are opining on.

    I was a biology major then switched to chemistry in my final year in college. Every chemistry major had to take biology too and had to learn how to read biology research papers. Her claims about the abilities of different scientists are ridiculous.   

    Also, practically nothing I learned in biology or chemistry was directly helpful in my job as a cosmetic chemist or formulator. College does not teach you about specific ingredients, formulating, what's best for skin or hair or anything else about making products.

    There are some valid points about essential oils, extracts, etc. but there is a lot of BS too. For example physical scrubs do not cause cell death & foaming has nothing to do with surfactant's "destruction of skin"

    Overall, I find the author of this paper to be immature and insecure.



  • Thank you Dr Catherine Pratt for your passion and knowledge on apoptosis as programmed cell death, very interesting to hear about how people get these details wrong and it is generally not pick up on in a consumer context.


    Oh you guys know I get a bit Passionate about things!




  • Thank you Mark for the informative comment, really interesting to hear your opinion on the formulating skill from a cost/skills analysis perspective.


    She has some good points regarding her list of "do not included ingredients" ... Essential Oils, unbalanced Linoleic/Oleic Oil combinations, overall pH balance and her products are well-formulated for the most part.  They appear to be 2 phase systems as she does not use emulsifiers, so they must be shake well before use to mix the oil and water phases.

    Where she is going off the rails, and is it pure marketing schtick on her part, is that chemists do not have the skill set to formulate good cosmetic products nor understand skin biology as she completely disregards the fact that most all learning is self-taught and is a life long experience.  The implication is that because you have a degree in chemistry, that you are incapable of learning or understanding skin biology and that you stop learning at the end of your degree, which is patently absurd.  But, again, that is part of her marketing.

    I do have to laugh at her dig at the profit motivation of skin care developers when her own products are priced at $100 to $200 per ounce and require no more skill than pouring a fixed set ingredients into a beaker.  All one need do is some research on ingredients and ingredient combinations to develop a similar suite of products ... basically, that's something any trained scientist in chemistry, biology and related fields is capable of doing.  I mean, how many years of scientific training does one need to come to the conclusion that putting Cilantro Extract in a skin care concoction could be beneficial to the skin?

    By the way, someone should inform her that Aloe Vera Juice has absolutely no scientifically-proven skin care benefit, and can potentially be harmful if it is not aloin-free.

  • Dtdang said:
    The article has some valuable points:
    we need to understand the % fatty acids profile of natural oils we used to formulate. Never overload the oleic acids that can cause acne, dark spots,...we also need to understand the active ingredients that can effect the skin in the good ways.
    Thank you for this comment, it is good to have this point reiterated and to have it clear in my mind when analyzing formulas. Although I don't formulate myself I have a keen interest in chemists and as a Green Practitioner of Make-up Artistry I have to look at the back of many many different packets of products to quickly figure out which ones are well formulated.

    I will try to get together some sort of simple list of a way of working out if it is balanced. Have you personally come across any common mistakes in this sort of formulation?

    Thank you also Mark for your comments on the same subject.

    PS
    Mark, I have seen many many formulations with Aloe Vera Juice and it is only labeled with organic credentials, no mention of 'aloin free'. Is it worth emailing the brands that contain this or do you recommend avoiding all together?

    Perhaps the organic credentials signify a more careful extraction of just the gelly and not the Aloin part.
    She has some good points regarding her list of "do not included ingredients" ... Essential Oils, unbalanced Linoleic/Oleic Oil combinations, overall pH balance and her products are well-formulated for the most part.  They appear to be 2 phase systems as she does not use emulsifiers, so they must be shake well before use to mix the oil and water phases.

    Where she is going off the rails, and is it pure marketing schtick on her part, is that chemists do not have the skill set to formulate good cosmetic products nor understand skin biology as she completely disregards the fact that most all learning is self-taught and is a life long experience.  The implication is that because you have a degree in chemistry, that you are incapable of learning or understanding skin biology and that you stop learning at the end of your degree, which is patently absurd.  But, again, that is part of her marketing.

    I do have to laugh at her dig at the profit motivation of skin care developers when her own products are priced at $100 to $200 per ounce and require no more skill than pouring a fixed set ingredients into a beaker.  All one need do is some research on ingredients and ingredient combinations to develop a similar suite of products ... basically, that's something any trained scientist in chemistry, biology and related fields is capable of doing.  I mean, how many years of scientific training does one need to come to the conclusion that putting Cilantro Extract in a skin care concoction could be beneficial to the skin?

    By the way, someone should inform her that Aloe Vera Juice has absolutely no scientifically-proven skin care benefit, and can potentially be harmful if it is not aloin-free.

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @crystabel:

    Certified Organic Aloe Vera Juice is commonly used in products to "jack up" the organic content if you are trying to get organic certification on your final product.  It's an expensive approach since you can only use liquid aloe vera juice and not the organic powder.  But, aloin in aloe vera juice is a potential carcinogen and aloe vera juice has no proven skin benefit.  So, it's really a marketing label ingredient as most consumers think that aloe vera is skin-beneficial and/or strategic ingredient if you are targeting organic certification.  I suspect companies do not highlight "Aloin-Free" Aloe Vera Juice to not draw attention to the issue.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • AzizAziz Member
    @MarkBroussard , thanks for your informative comments. 
    But I would like to express my view about Alovera  . It is well known that Alovera is a very good astringent , humactant, moisturiser,  it has soothing effect , it is noncomedogenic and very much skin friendly and therapeutic . It has so many virtues .  It is also beneficial to hair also . 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Aziz:

    If you review the scientific literature on studies done of Aloe Vera you will find that none of those purported skin benefits of Aloe Vera have been substantiated in clinical testing.

    Perry posted a thread on it a while back ... a professor at University of Florida compiled an extensive review of the research on Aloe Vera and the conclusion was that it has no evidence-based skin benefit.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • AzizAziz Member
    @MarkBroussard Hi Mark , so many thanks . I read this study earlier . This study also described so many benifits of Alovera including healing and curing though I mentioned only cosmetics criteria of Alovera. 
    " Results of a number of clinical trials suggest that Aloe vera is positively indicated in the treatment of skin disorders. A trial of wound healing management after the full-faced dermabrasion of patients with acne vulgaris demonstrated that the saturation of a standard polyethylene wound gel dressing with Aloe vera significantly reduced time to reepithelization compared to use of the standard dressing alone (Fulton 1990). In a randomized, double-blind, controlled trial of Aloe vera or placebo cream in 60 patients with chronic psoriasis, the cure rate in the Aloe vera group was 83% (with no relapses at 12 months of follow-up) compared to only 7% in the placebo group (Syed et al. 1996 " . 
    When we use something in cosmetics we consider it's skin benifits, we do not use it as an active  ingredients of drug. 
    Though Alovera has many healing benifits but these are not necessarily need for cosmetics.  
    I just tried to mention it's cosmetics benifits. 
  • @I don't know if it is just in Australia but you can use Aloe powder extract to increase the organic percent. We do that with surfactants as well and they sell surfactants like decyl glucoside with Aloe in the available water.
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • @Microformulation, @crytsabel, I don't know if it is just in Australia but you can use Aloe powder extract to increase the organic percent. We do that with surfactants as well and they also sell surfactants like decyl glucoside with Aloe in the available water. As you would know it has been hard to formulate a large organic surfactant content until this trick was allowed by the certifiers, but still usually to about 70% organic certification and that is it. In saying that, you can also use Chamomile, coconut etc powder extract, it doesn't just have to be Aloe.

    Crystabel sorry that I thought you were the author of said paper. I actually did think about that many years ago, actually when I was at uni and we used to do chemistry experiments that had a biological component in it. It was a marine chemistry class and we were looking at synthesis of coral and other marine species like seaweeds etc. The pure chemists had no idea what was happening and didn't know the differences in biological classification, like phylum down to genus and species.
    However, since coming on to this site I have realised that we are still learning and if that was a problem for them I am sure they would have taught themselves all about the biological aspects already. And yes so I do get a bit passionate as they help out a lot of start ups that otherwise would have no place to go to which all come back to @Perry which we thank everyday!!Sometimes this site keeps me sane.....
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
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