How to formulate a properly foaming cationic cleansing conditioner?

GuntherGunther Member
edited March 5 in Formulating
I have been trying to formulate properly foaming cleansing conditioners
cationics don't foam much on their own, so an additional, mild surfactant must be added

So far I have tried:
CAPB and glucosides = they thin out and destabilize emulsion at higher concentrations needed for proper foaming
ethoxylated fatty alcohols = not that mild
anionics = not compatible with BTMS or CETAC cationics
Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate = just ordered it, waiting for it to arrive to try it

Any other ideas?


The basic formulas I have tried are something like
- water q.s. to 100%
- Methylparaben  0.3%
- Propylparaben  0.1%
- BTMS-50  3-5%
- CETAC  0-0.5% active  (it improves foam a bit, but also thins out the formulation, unless cetearyl alcohol is added)
- Polyquaternium-7  0-0.5% active
- Cetearyl alcohol  0-4%  (it reduces foam a bit, but increases viscosity and seems to improve emulsion stability)
- Silicones (dimethicone, dimethiconol)  0-1% active. Will replace them with Amodimethicone, as they seem to reduce foaming too.
- Synthetic fragrance
- Polyox WSR301  0-0.1%

Thanks

Comments

  • Sarcosinate is anionic too... I am sure you will find a use for it, but it probably won't work with BTMS
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Sarcosinate is anionic too... I am sure you will find a use for it, but it probably won't work with BTMS
    Ain't Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate supposed to be compatible with cationics like CETAC or Behentrimonium?
    https://www.crodapersonalcare.com/en-gb/products-and-applications/product-finder/product/170/Crodasinic_1_LS30
  • Sorry @Gunther, I couldn't find any info on it's compatability with cationics. Which document are you referring to? 

    Even if it's not compatible with cationics, it's an incredible surfactant. I received mine two days ago and was very impressed. I coudn't not achieve similar result with any other surfactant I have ever tried. Still figuring out how to thicken it properly.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Sorry @Gunther, I couldn't find any info on it's compatability with cationics. Which document are you referring to? 

    Even if it's not compatible with cationics, it's an incredible surfactant. I received mine two days ago and was very impressed. I coudn't not achieve similar result with any other surfactant I have ever tried. Still figuring out how to thicken it properly.
    Several formulas in the Internet have sarcosinates along cationics like CETAC.
    Table 2: High Lather Crème Rinse Shampoo
    Component Composition (w/w) %
    Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, 30% 20.0
    Coco betaine, 35% 10.0
    Lauramide DEA 5.0
    Cetrimonium chloride, 30% 0.8
    Steralkonium chloride, 25% 0.1
    Disodium DTA 0.2
    Water, perfume, preservative q.s.

    Do you know if sarcosinates can be thickened with Crothix or Carbopol?
  • Crothix works. I almost gave up already and then tried crothix.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

    Phase A.
    Water 60%
    Polyquaternium 0.7%
    Triethanolamine 0.05%
    Heat and stir

    Phase B
    Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
    EDTA Na-4 0.1%
    Methylparaben 0.3%
    Propylparaben 0.105%
    BTMS-50 5%
    CETAC solution 2%

    Phase C
    Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
    Dimethicone 350  0.75%
    Dow Amodimethicone 8087  0.75%
    Premix and stir
    Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

    Dehyton-K  10% (3% active CAPB)
    Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
    Cocamide DEA 1%
    Cetearyl alcohol 4%
    qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
    Fragance 0.4%

    Phase D
    Glycerin 1%
    Polyox 0.1%
    Premix, and add to the previous phases.
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    Belassi said:
    Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?
    Thanks. I will see if it's available here.

    CAPB seems to destabilize the cationic emulsion more than any other surfactant. I wonder if it's because its salt content.
  • AzizAziz Member
    Gunther said:
    Belassi said:
    Dehyton G is amphoteric and gives good foam, you could try that?
    Thanks. I will see if it's available here.

    CAPB seems to destabilize the cationic emulsion more than any other surfactant. I wonder if it's because its salt content.
    Does CAPB destabilize dimethicone shampoo also ?
  • Aziz said:
    Does CAPB destabilize dimethicone shampoo also ?
    It depends on what the surfactant is.
    For typical SLES based shampoos, dimethicone is solubilized (emulsified?) by dodecylbenzene sulfonates or ethoxylated alcohols.

    And no, CAPB doesn't seem to destabilize those formulations as much.
    I believe it has to do with SLES shampoos being mostly a solution with only a minor part of it being an emulsion holding small amounts of silicone in place,
    as compared to cationic conditioner formulas where all of it is an emulsion, as needed to hold large amounts of (nonethoxylated) fatty alcohols (i.e. cetyl or cetoesterayl alcohols) in place.

    But cationic formulations are WAY more conditioning than anionic or nonionic ones so they're worth trying, IMO.
  • Gunther said:
    This one felt nicely conditioning with mild cleaning as desired but it has almost no foam:

    Phase A.
    Water 60%
    Polyquaternium 0.7%
    Triethanolamine 0.05%
    Heat and stir

    Phase B
    Add the following ingredients to Phase A in the listed order
    EDTA Na-4 0.1%
    Methylparaben 0.3%
    Propylparaben 0.105%
    BTMS-50 5%
    CETAC solution 2%

    Phase C
    Laureth-9 (ethoxylated lauryl alcohol-9EO) 3%
    Dimethicone 350  0.75%
    Dow Amodimethicone 8087  0.75%
    Premix and stir
    Add phase C to A+B while heating and stirring

    Dehyton-K  10% (3% active CAPB)
    Protelan LS-9011 10% (3% active Na-lauroyl sarcosinate)
    Cocamide DEA 1%
    Cetearyl alcohol 4%
    qs with water to compensate for water evaporation when heating
    Fragance 0.4%

    Phase D
    Glycerin 1%
    Polyox 0.1%
    Premix, and add to the previous phases.
    It looks like there are several things hindering foam

    1. The surfactants are used at low levels and are mild.
    3% active CAPB
    3% active Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate
    1% cocamide DEA
    3% laureth-9
    So I may try increasing them.

    2. According to a study, 2% dimethicone (PDMS) hinders foaming to half, while amodimethicone (ADMS) only reduces it by about 10%
    So I will try switching to 1.5% amodimethicone instead of 0.75% dimethicone, 0.75% amodimethicone.

    3. Fatty alcohols reduce foaming.
    I will try reducing that while still getting good viscosity and feel.
    Will try switching to cetyl instead of cetearyl alcohol.

    4. CETAC doesn't seem to offer anything that BTMS doesn't, and it's supposed to reduce viscosity, potentially needing more foam reducing fatty alcohols to restore viscosity.
    Although I didn't notice 2% CETAC solution dropping viscosity too much. Not clearly visible to the naked eye.

    5. I will try some Crothix thickener to reduce fatty alcohols usage.
    Albeit I tried thickening it with Crothix before and it lead to a "watered-down" white, instead of a creamy white that fatty alcohols provide.
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