How to make a cleanser with Decyl Glucoside better at removing makeup?

ZinkZink Member
edited February 2019 in Formulating
Got a gentle pH 4 cleanser formula designed with acneic skin in mind, currently only using Decyl Glucoside as a surfactant, I like it, for most people it's very mild (although there is a concerning trend of older eczematous people  becoming more and more sensitive to it), and it doesn't leave the skin feeling too dry.

But at 10% it's not very effective against makeup, any way to boost its makeup removing properties without making it a lot "harsher"?

Comments

  • I am speaking as an experienced consumer rather than a formulator now.

    I don't think this problem has a solution. There are only two types of products that are really effective for removing make up: 1) cleansing oil/balm and 2) Duo-phased make up remover. Both contain oil (cyclomethicone in #2). The main reason for that, is the fact that make up in most cases is more or less waterproof. Foundation is W/O emulsion, so you need oil to dissolve it.

    That is the main reason why so called double cleansing is so popular today. You start wil oil cleanser and follow by surfactant based cleanser.

  • I am speaking as an experienced consumer rather than a formulator now.

    I don't think this problem has a solution. There are only two types of products that are really effective for removing make up: 1) cleansing oil/balm and 2) Duo-phased make up remover. Both contain oil (cyclomethicone in #2). The main reason for that, is the fact that make up in most cases is more or less waterproof. Foundation is W/O emulsion, so you need oil to dissolve it.

    That is the main reason why so called double cleansing is so popular today. You start wil oil cleanser and follow by surfactant based cleanser.

    I saw your simple formula of make-up remover but it does not contain the
    cyclomethicone
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited February 2019
    @smok, I shared many of my formulas here and not sure which one you are referring to. Are you referring to CAPB + glucosides facewash?
  • Thanks @ngarayeva001 very good points, yet I believe some surfactants are better than others at removing makeup too?

    The like dissolves like approach might be a good way to keep the formula gentle on the skin, perhaps if you emulsified some cyclomethicone into the formula? 


  • Any oil added to surfactants (silicone is an oil for the sake of this discussion) will decrease cleansing power. Surfactant with SLES will remove makeup better (yet not good enough) than the one with decyl glucoside but I guess this isn’t a solution that you are looking for.
  • There are surfactants compatible with oils that create clear cleansing oil. Have you considered those?
  • @smok, I shared many of my formulas here and not sure which one you are referring to. Are you referring to CAPB + glucosides facewash?

    i do not reaaly remeber when i mee it
    mabe is this
    Mineral oil 61.65%
    Cetearyl Alcohol PEG-20 Wax 10.00% Wax
    PEG-40 HCO Dehymul sf 12.00%
    Stearic acid 10.00%
    Cetyl alcohol 5.00%

    Blend of essential oils 0,50%
    Conservative 0.75%


  • There are surfactants compatible with oils that create clear cleansing oil. Have you considered those?

    Maybe add a silicone and increase the amount of surfactant to offset reduction in cleansing whilst improving makeup removal efficacy? What emulsifier would one use here?

    I have not considered cleansing oil as the evidence of helping with acne reduction is for low pH water based cleansers, maybe one can create a best of both worlds formula here retaining the water based low pH formula, with some additional oils to aid makeup removal and possibly refattening? 
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 Ethanol based product can not be a good solublizer for make up  ? i  think about the idea cause wax and oil are soluble in it , just may Ethanol must have high purity for dissolving better make up.
  • @smok, it's a cleansing balm:

    INCI %
    Mineral oil 62.25%
    Cetearyl alcohol and PEG-20 Stearate 10.00%
    PEG-40 HCO 12.00%
    Stearic acid 10.00%
    Cetyl Alcohol 5.00%
    Phenoxyethanol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin 0.75%

    You don't need Cyclomethicone for it. It's a solid cleansing product that should be melted in hands applied on face and rinsed off.

    Duophased makeup removers with Cyclomethicone usually look like this:

    INCI %
    Aqua 44.35%
    Tetrasodium EDTA 0.20%
    Butylene Glycol 3.00%
    Sodium Chloride 1.25%
    Germaben 1.0%
    C12-15 alkyl benzoate 2.00%
    Cyclomethicone 48.00%
    Bisabolol 0.20%
     
    This is a liquid product that should be shaken and then applied using a cotton pad. You don't need to rinse it off.

    Both of the products use oil to dissolve makeup. Cyclomethicone can be considered oil for the sake of this discussion.
  • @Zink, you can formulate a decent surfactant based face wash. I personally think that the Korean approach to cleansing is the best one. You use an oil cleanser and then surfactant based cleanser (I genuinely believe that you need both). In this case, you can add salicylic acid, make it low pH and market it as an anti-acne product. All I am saying a surfactant-based product will not be effective to dissolve water-resistant makeup. Keep in mind that face product should not contain more than 10% of surfactants and should be safe for eyes. 
  • @Fekher, you are right ethanol dissolves makeup pretty well, but imagine how much it dries the skin. Also, it's not safe to use it on eyes.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 it is just Ethanol based product wich i can think about glycerine vegetabeles oils to make it softer and may other input ☺ .
  • Seems like there's no obvious / easy way to do this, save it for the future then. My friends say that even cleansing oils aren't that good and that they prefer to use makeup removal pads.
  • Well if you want a bulletproof option it’s duophased cyclomethicone based makeup remover. The formula above is reverse engineered la prairie product. It will dissolve any makeup. Balms aren’t bad either.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    edited February 2019

    ngarayeva001 said:


    Duophased makeup removers with Cyclomethicone usually look like this:

    INCI %
    Aqua 44.35%
    Tetrasodium EDTA 0.20%
    Butylene Glycol 3.00%
    Sodium Chloride 1.25%
    Germaben 1.0%
    C12-15 alkyl benzoate 2.00%
    Cyclomethicone 48.00%
    Bisabolol 0.20%
     
    This is a liquid product that should be shaken and then applied using a cotton pad. You don't need to rinse it off.

    Both of the products use oil to dissolve makeup. Cyclomethicone can be considered oil for the sake of this discussion.
    What prevents the 48% cyclomethicone from separating?
    Is 2% C12-C15 alkyl benzoate enough for that?
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited February 2019
    @Gunther, It must separate. You can find them in any department store. Water phase is usually colored blue. You shake it before using and then it separates back.
  • Here’s an example 
  • Here’s an example 
    can I make it with carbomer  as gelgel
  • No, because I don't think that gel will mix with cyclomethicone. You will have a mess in the bottle.
  • Thanks @ngarayeva001
    Are there any such commercial products sold in twin container, twin dispensing nozzle bottles?
    As to avoid shaking before use.
  • I have not seen such products. I think you just invented interesting an approach to packaging.
  • I have not seen such products. I think you just invented interesting an approach to packaging.
    <3 <3
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    That component already exists. I have worked on several products using two chambers such as that. I believe that we purchased them from ABA Packaging in the US.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited February 2019
    I have seen many commercial products with two chambers. Old version of the double serum by clarins is the first one that comes to my mind. I suppose this type of product requires a specialised solution where water and oil are being mixed inside of the pump. Otherwise it won't be practicle and you will end up with a cotton pad half of which is soaked with cyclomethicone and another half with water. Proper mixing isn't crucial for serums as they mixed during application.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I recall that we used a component that did pre-mix the solutions, but it was with rather low viscosities. I remember the product because the packaging was easy to get, but the filling was a pain. It had to be addressed in the QA/QC SOP's as well as the filling records. Essentially it was two separate fill stations.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • What about foam? Obviously water is easy, but all silicones for this purpose would be foam-reducing, right? (I just saw a foaming makeup primer today but I wasn’t able to look at the ingredients. If it’s like 99% of primers, it contains a great deal of silicones.)
  • It’s appied using cotton pad. You don’t need it to foam.
  • @smok, it's a cleansing balm:

    INCI %
    Mineral oil 62.25%
    Cetearyl alcohol and PEG-20 Stearate 10.00%
    PEG-40 HCO 12.00%
    Stearic acid 10.00%
    Cetyl Alcohol 5.00%
    Phenoxyethanol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin 0.75%

    You don't need Cyclomethicone for it. It's a solid cleansing product that should be melted in hands applied on face and rinsed off.

    Duophased makeup removers with Cyclomethicone usually look like this:

    INCI %
    Aqua 44.35%
    Tetrasodium EDTA 0.20%
    Butylene Glycol 3.00%
    Sodium Chloride 1.25%
    Germaben 1.0%
    C12-15 alkyl benzoate 2.00%
    Cyclomethicone 48.00%
    Bisabolol 0.20%
     
    This is a liquid product that should be shaken and then applied using a cotton pad. You don't need to rinse it off.

    Both of the products use oil to dissolve makeup. Cyclomethicone can be considered oil for the sake of this discussion.
    hello dear i did not find Cetyl Alcohol what is the substitute


  • Cetearyl alcohol or add more stearic acid. Polyethylene is an option as well, but make sure it's a low melting point one.
  • kotkot Member, PCF student
    Why not try micellar water? And also you are forgetting, that it is supposed to be a formula for acneic skin, maybe better no oils?
  • kotkot Member, PCF student
    @ngarayeva001 could you tell me please, how solid it is, is it a bar-solid? 
    Also can mineral oil be substituted for some ester?

    INCI%
    Mineral oil62.25%
    Cetearyl alcohol and PEG-20 Stearate10.00%
    PEG-40 HCO12.00%
    Stearic acid10.00%
    Cetyl Alcohol5.00%
    Phenoxyethanol (and) Ethylhexylglycerin0.75%

    You don't need Cyclomethicone for it. It's a solid cleansing product that should be melted in hands applied on face and rinsed off.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @kot - micellar water (which is just diluted surfactant) would not be a particularly effective option.

  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited February 2019
    There is no scientifically backed data that suggests that oil cleansers make acne issue worse.

    Regarding the texture it's not bar solid. You can make it bar solid if replace stearic acid and cetyl alcohol to polyethylene. And yes you can easily replace mineral oil to a lighter ester. I often blend mineral oil with IPM. 
    I have 5 versions of this product but I find this particular formula is the best. 
  • Here is another one:
    INCI %
    Mineral oil 31%
    C12-15 Alkil Benzoate 36%
    Peg-20 Glyceryl Triisostearate 10%
    PEG-40 HCO 10%
    Polyethylene 10%
    Butylene Glycol 1%
    Glycerin 1%
    Preservative 1%

    More or less ok, but hard to wash it off. I am still working on it. I tried Peg-20 Glyceryl Triisostearate at 20% without PEG-40 HCO, but it doesn't dissolve makeup as well as the version above.
  • kotkot Member, PCF student
    @ngarayeva001 Thanks, try poly-80 at 10-15 % ...maybe 
  • kotkot Member, PCF student
    @Perry, hello teacher, hope you're fine! There are micellar water formulations with kind of dissolvers .
  • The majority of micellar water products in the market are made of either poloxamer 185 or PEG-6 caprylic/capric glycerides. Neither of those is efficient for dissolving water resistant products.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @kot - I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "dissolvers".  Do you have an ingredient list of a micellar water that you can share?  My review of micellar water ingredient lists & the way they are marketed leads me to view these as simply watered down regular cleansers or formulated with surfactants that are not particularly effective at cleansing.

  • ZinkZink Member
    edited March 2019
    The ordinary launched a new cleanser which they claim removes makeup well and is gentle, squalane based pH 5.5. Perhaps something like this could be improved upon to offer more benefit to acneic skin. Let me know if you have any thoughts as to pros and cons with this strategy, apart from the cost.

    "When rubbed between your palms for approximately 10-30 seconds, the product undergoes an important textural change from a balm-like consistency to a clear oil-like consistency. This allows the emulsifying sucrose esters in the formula to trap and blend the dissolved makeup and facial impurities with water for rinsing. Being non-comedogenic and soap-free, this formula is designed to be gentle enough for daily use, without over-drying the skin, making it suitable for all skin types."

    Squalane, Aqua (Water), Coco-Caprylate/Caprate, Glycerin, Sucrose Stearate, Ethyl Macadamiate, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Sucrose Laurate, Hydrogenated Starch Hydrolysate, Sucrose Dilaurate, Sucrose Trilaurate, Polyacrylate Crosspolymer-6, Isoceteth-20, Sodium Polyacrylate, Tocopherol, Hydroxymethoxyphenyl Decanone, Trisodium Ethylenediamine Disuccinate, Malic Acid, Ethylhexylglycerin, Chlorphenesin.

    https://theordinary.com/product/rdn-squalane-cleanser-50ml?redir=1&mc_cid=10a0cd2a3d&mc_eid=6e645e906b
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