Natural dog Shampoo sulfate free!!!

Hello, I'm trying to create my own shampoo for my dog. So far I found this formula:
D.I. Water
Polyquaternium-10
Iselux® Ultra Mild 
Fragrance
Citric Acid
Preservative
oatmeal & Aloe 
What do you think about this formula? I'm not a chemistry expert but I love to me try new stuff.

Comments

  • DASDAS Member
    Unless you have a vet helping you with the formula don't experiment on your dog. Their skin is far more complicated than human skin. What's mild for us might be poison to them. Search @Belassi 's topic about this.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Not to beat a dead horse, but this is why I dislike the term "natural." It means nothing. Usually, it is a barrier since it restricts the Formulation. However, there are cases on the other end of the spectrum. From a purely objective standpoint and referencing the natural standards, this would not be demonstrably "natural." Now, that would not be an issue with most shampoos in this market sector. The price points which products have to meet in these products is very tight. In almost every case there is huge pressure to stay within the market prices. If you look and get objective sales data (not cool website, they must be huge), you will see that very few "natural" lines have prospered in this sector.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Microformulation - I was just wondering what plant could I grow to get Polyquaternium-10.

  • DAS said:
    Unless you have a vet helping you with the formula don't experiment on your dog. Their skin is far more complicated than human skin. What's mild for us might be poison to them. Search @Belassi 's topic about this.
    Thank you for the tip @Belassi topic looks interesting 
  • Not to beat a dead horse, but this is why I dislike the term "natural." It means nothing. Usually, it is a barrier since it restricts the Formulation. However, there are cases on the other end of the spectrum. From a purely objective standpoint and referencing the natural standards, this would not be demonstrably "natural." Now, that would not be an issue with most shampoos in this market sector. The price points which products have to meet in these products is very tight. In almost every case there is huge pressure to stay within the market prices. If you look and get objective sales data (not cool website, they must be huge), you will see that very few "natural" lines have prospered in this sector.
    Thank you for the information. I'm actually looking for personal use. I don't want to pay 30$ for "natural" dog shampoo. That's why I'm here, trying to understand the basics. Like I said before I'm not a chemist, but I'm just fascinated by the chemistry world. 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Kull_Axel Let me ask. What is the predominant reason that you feel it has to be natural? Natural is not always safer (this is a fallacy) and in this case, you aren't even close. The natural animal shampoos are in many cases based on diluted saponified liquid soaps and there is always a debate how well they can tolerate the higher pH inherent to these liquid soaps.

    Simply even working with a fuzzy definition of the undefined term "natural" this not "natural."

    I have done several of these lines. In almost every case I have a client that rode the misconception regarding "natural" and price to the end and then has been required to reformulate due to price. 
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Also, why sulfate-free? If you do some market research into the mainstream shampoos, sulfates dominate in this market. Sulfates get a bad rap and they are safe and non-irritating when properly formulated. Since it isn't for marketing, it doesn't have to hit the market and overcome some preconceived marketing fallacy.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2019
    @Kull_Axel:

    You can make a simple, effective and inexpensive natural dog shampoo with just a few ingredients:

    Water
    Decyl Glucoside
    Aloe Vera Juice
    Oatmeal Extract or Oat Beta Glucan
    Preservative
    Water-soluble Natural Fragrance (www.carrubba.com)
    Xanthan Gum

    Keep your final pH at 7.5 ... matches the pH of a dog's skin.

    You won't be able to afford to purchase a 55 gallon drum of Iselux Mild for your personal use on your dog ... it's not available from re-packers.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @MarkBroussard

    Wouldn't a simpler formula be...

    Water
    Decyl Glucoside
    Preservative
    Water-soluble Natural Fragrance (www.carrubba.com)
    Xanthan Gum

    What noticeable benefits would be gotten from Aloe & Oatmeal extract?
  • From a book written by a veterinarian,  Karen L. Campbell, so she's probably looked into appropriate literature for her information.
    The book title: The Pet lover's guide to cat and dog skin diseases....
    Aloe vera kills bacteria and moisturizes skin
    Oatmeal relieves itching and moisturizes skin (and is GREAT in cookies!)

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Perry:

    Yes, that would be more simple ... The Aloe & Oat Extract ... those are for label appeal, just in case your dog can read.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
  • Always read the label.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • About the only truly "natural" soaps
    are vegetable oils (found in nature) saponified with Sodium or Potassium hydroxide (man made).
    But the results will be awful and pH way too high, which would be irritating for dogs.


  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Gunther said:
    About the only truly "natural" soaps
    are vegetable oils (found in nature) saponified with Sodium or Potassium hydroxide (man made).
    But the results will be awful and pH way too high, which would be irritating for dogs.


    Spot on.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @MarkBroussard and @Perry

    I assumed that since the writer of the book I mentioned above is a veterinarian, she might be LESS likely to fall for claims ingredients.  

    I don't use pixie dust in the stuff I make. 

    I guess it's like the saying goes: No one's easier to fool than yourself, and don't eat yellow snow. 
  • Also, why sulfate-free? If you do some market research into the mainstream shampoos, sulfates dominate in this market. Sulfates get a bad rap and they are safe and non-irritating when properly formulated. Since it isn't for marketing, it doesn't have to hit the market and overcome some preconceived marketing fallacy.
    I'm looking for something without sulfate because the veterinary suggested me to buy something without sulfate since my dog skin it's delicate. Maybe he was affected by marketing fallacy too, I don't know. By the way, thanks for the formulas guys. I will study it and see if I can make a small amount as a test. May I also ask what do you think about this product CalBlend® PC (Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, and Cocamide MIPA) there are any advantages using this one instead of the Decyl Glucoside?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    As @MarkBroussard pointed out, there are many surfactants but in many cases, they are not available in the amounts you need.  I would make one criteria the availability of the materials to a beginner. You could go through the credit process and spend a thousand or so on a drum, but that is your drum from that point on. If you change the Formula and don't use it, it is still your drum. The surfactant you are mentioning is a drum type material. I would spend less time looking at multiple bases that no offense you aren't knowledgeable yet to make the real distinctions. Make the above shampoo and do the formulating. You are stalled in the paper/whiteboard planning. Despite any theoretical assertations, real World lab work is the ONLY way to get a definitive answer on the properties of the raw materials.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • anniemarieanniemarie Member
    edited January 2019
    @Kull_Axel   There is a shampoo for canines that use carrier oils, organic milk and essential oils, nothing else.  They were able to create a bar that's beneficial for a majority of skin issues, deters common pests and produces the softest coat.   Unsure if your looking to make your own or purchase.   Found at Lions Market by Ann Shampoo for Canines.
  • Why decyl glucoside? It has high pH. Isn't CAPB a better and milder option? CAPB and Olefin Sulfonate are available on the DIY market.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    That is why you use a pH modifier.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Margreat - I didn't mean to come off sounding snarky but having been in the cosmetics business for a few decades, I'm a bit jaded when it comes to claims about most ingredients.  I'm not cynical as I do believe there are things that have benefits (like surfactants) but I'm swayed by evidence, not anecdote.

    The veterinarian who wrote the book may have researched the subject, but more likely was passing on information she heard somewhere along the way or read in some book or marketing material. Also, even really smart people can believe erroneous things. 

    I did a brief literature search and stumbled on this paper.
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9rh5nmwaumn69p/aloe-research.pdf?dl=0

    In it the authors specifically examined the antibacterial effectiveness of Aloe Vera. They conclude that under their test conditions Aloe Vera has an antibacterial effect against some strains of bacteria but no effectiveness against other bacteria."  So, it's not incorrect to say Aloe has an antibacterial effect, but it is not broadly effective against all bacteria.
    Also, the study was done using 100% aloe in petri dishes. It wasn't incorporated into a shampoo system to look for an effect.

    More importantly, the idea that you need to add antibacterial compounds to a detergent system is just mistaken. The FDA recently came out to say that there is no additional benefit gained by adding antibacterial agents to detergent systems. (https://www.fda.gov/ForConsumers/ConsumerUpdates/ucm378393.htm)

    So even if you believe Aloe has antibacterial properties, there is no proven benefit to adding it to a shampoo system.

    ---------
    As far as Oatmeal goes, there is some research done on this too.  For example this paper...

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/4uij9isak51jejz/oatmeal-itching.pdf?dl=0

    ...found that burn patients who received a parrafin treatment with colloidal oatmeal reported less itching. So, it's reasonable to hypothesize that oatmeal is anti-itch.  However, going from a topical parrafin treatment to a rinse off shampoo is a gigantic leap!  And since oatmeal is water soluble it is very likely to simply get washed away and go down the drain.  

    This is why we say these  are in there for claims purposes.  There is no scientific evidence demonstrating putting aloe & oatmeal in a dog shampoo will have any noticeable effect.
  • @Perry you are NOT snarky at all. I doubt you could be, from what I've read and heard of you (on your podcasts). 

    And, I don't use any pixie dust myself (like aloe vera etc), in what I make. 

    Yes, I've heard lots of silly things from people who are well-educated, and it surprises me, often. I guess this veterinarian was also fooled. I would have expected someone with an educational background like the vet would have read REAL research before adding it to her book. 


  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Kull_Axel:

    I might recommend that you peruse the surfactants available on re-packer websites such as SaveOnCitric, MakingCosmetics, IngredientsToDieFor, Lotioncrafter ... the surfactants you are asking about are only available manufacturer-direct and generally by the drum.  
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • DASDAS Member
    Also, even if you find a surfactant system that suits your needs you should be extra careful choosing fragrance and preservative. 

    Leaving those items to consumers choice is reckless, and even ethically shady for a vet. Fragrances will have allergens, and some preservatives can mess with the nervous system.

    For fragrance I suggest you find a manufacturer who has experience developing for pets, the downside will be the MOQ. And im sure someone here can shed some light on preservatives. Forlamdehyde releasers perhaps?. 
  • Why decyl glucoside? It has high pH. Isn't CAPB a better and milder option? CAPB and Olefin Sulfonate are available on the DIY market.
    Also, a high glucoside, low CAPB formulation I made (for a human handwash) leaves a sticky afterfeel.
    That doesn't happen with high CAPB, low glucoside.
  • @Gunther exactly! I add a tiny amount of decyl glucoside to boost the foam but I didn’t know its used as a primary surfactant. It’s however considered quite mild based on zein test.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Both via anecdotal evidence and studies, Decyl Glucoside is hardly non-irritating. https://www.jaad.org/article/S0190-9622(17)32539-2/fulltext
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Any ingredient is going to have some subpopulation that will have some sort of sensitivity to it ... look at is this way ... 98% to 99% of the population don't have any sensitivity to Decyl Glucoside.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2019
    Yes, but in my anecdotal experience, I have seen 5-6 lines in the last 3 years move away from the alkylpolyglucosides. @Belassi has experienced this as well if you followed some of his relevant posts.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Well, There's Science and then there's Anecdotes ... The Science says that 98% to 99% of the population do not have any sensitivity to alykylpolyglucosides.

    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I understand the differences quite well.   

    The issue is simply that the bias against these products is growing. I get approached about once a quarter now from lines that want to respond to the bias and reformulate.

    My key point was to dispute that it is considered "quite mild." I believe that I have made a great case that this is not necessarily the case.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited January 2019
    I personally don't like glucosides. Especially for hair products (that is why my question was "why decyl glycoside"). The reason why I said it is considered to be mild is a result of zein test according to which it can be classified as mild comparing to other surfactants (such as SLS, SLES). The result of zein test isn't 100% proof but it is a piece of scientific evidence. I didn't mean that there are no people (and animals?) who are sensitive to it. I don't have experience with animal products but my first guess would be CAPB, not decyl glucoside.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Actually, decyl glucoside ranks a bit milder than CAPB ... but I'm sure not appreciably enough to make much of a difference unless someone is predisposed to an contact reaction to either one.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Decyl Glucosdie actually is mild, that what the science proves.  As for companies reformulating ... well, who wants "Allergen Of The Year" on your label ... that is probably more for marketing purposes than anything.

    This "Allergen Of The Year" competition is quite dangerous ... you can see several ingredients that are perfectly fine for 99% of the population fall out of favor based on these kinds of articles.  Look at what happened to parabens.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Just to be clear, my own opinion is that glucosides are OK in rinse-off products in reasonable concentrations. I can't abide its use in a leave-on product though. 
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    All good points.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • em88em88 Member
    edited January 2019
    Perry said:
    @Microformulation - I was just wondering what plant could I grow to get Polyquaternium-10.

    It's a tree from the fam. Polyquaterniumeae.  :smiley:

    @Perry:

    Yes, that would be more simple ... The Aloe & Oat Extract ... those are for label appeal, just in case your dog can read.



  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited January 2019

    Polyquaternium 10 is made of hydroxyethylcellulose. Hydroxyethilcellucose made of cellulose. Cellulose is made of plants. So polyquaternium 10 is a plant. Plants are natural :)

    Same logic can be used to prove that pizza is a vegetable. Jokes aside, chemophobia is evil.

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 - This is why I contend that everything is natural.  And this will be true until someone can prove the supernatural exists.

  • Agreed :)
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