preservative mapping issues

 hello...i need your guidance regard to preservatives.. most of our customer got negative opinion about parabens so we avoid it totally but so phenoxy also not on good radar... i understand preservative is totally PH related. now when we talk to suppliers and try to understand preservative its vast area. can any one suggest a preservatives or set of preservative to use in leave on products, rinse of products 

Comments

  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited September 2018
    This really depends on the type of a product. You are correct, it is pH dependent, however, a scrub in a jar packaging (rinse off) that is stored in a humid warm place (bathroom) and that is scooped out of this jar with wet fingers would need a very strong preservative system. Much stronger than, say a spray in airtight container (leave on). So you should think about it from the product perspective not leave on/rinse off. You can try Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate blend (it's kinda broad spectrum and kinda intended for both rinse off and leave on products) but I don't think it will be as effective as parabens.
  • Also, Dehydroacetic acid & Benzyl alcohol blend is a non paraben, non-formaldehyde, non-isothiazolone based preservative system. It is acceptable in organic formulations. I can't say anything about efficacy.
  • @ngarayeva001...will sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate work in shampoos?...as the ph will be around 6, wont it will be ineffective after a period on shelf life.. and can what percentage of dehydroacetic acid and benzyl alcohol do you recommend.?  presently we are formulating baby wash n shampoo, moisturizer and adult shampoos with plant based surfactant(only i adult shampoo).... one more thing i really wanted to mention here.. it is such a relief to found something like this forum where i can gain from other experiences.. thank you all 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Here are a couple of options you can try that are effective at higher pH levels:

    (1)   Lonicera Caprifolium (Honeysuckle) flower extract, Lonicera Japonica (Honeysuckle) flower extract, water

    (2)   Phenethyl Alcohol, Propanediol, Pentylene Glycol (Lincoln Fine Ingredients)
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @Tattvas this is what manufacturer says: "Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate is normally used in concentrations of 0.5 – 1.5 %. It does not effect the foaming results of shampoo and shower gel making it highly useful as a preservation system in these products, providing the pH is less than 5.5. Sodium benzoate & Potassium sorbate is fully effective in both cationic and non-ionic systems". So you actuclly can reduce pH to 5 in no other preservative works for you. I understand it's all about perception of the customers, but nothing is better than parabens...
  •  yea @ngarayeva001..its all marketing gimmick.. will try sodium benzoate and potassium in baby wash and adult shampoo 
  • @MarkBroussard...yeah will try these in liquid soap
  • @ngarayeva001... i need ur opinion abt baby moisturiser.

    presently we are formulating this, so far no issues on front of texture, feel and preserving it as we make it small batches. but we are thinking of making it for longer shelf life.

    water phase:

    infused dandelion, neem, licorice,

    aloe vera aqua ( 10% of total water
    glycerin - 10 %
    xanthum gum -0.5 %

    Oil Phase:
    jojoba, shea, vit e, safflower, almond, avocado,beeswax(0.5%)
    sebuckthorn oil=total 11 %

    emollient
    cetyl alcohol- 3-5%
    glycerol oleate- 1%

    preservative - sodium benzoate-1 %
    ethylhexylglycerin- 0.5%





  • @nagarayeva001 in your opinion is the 5.5ph the absolute top end? My shampoo ends up between 5-6 ph
  • @Tattvas, to comment on this I need to know exact % of each individual oil. The reason for this is that, if you want to create a stable emulsion, you have to calculate HLB of our oil phase to make sure you are using the right emlsifyer. It is very important. What I see at the moment is that you are using oils with different HLBs ranging from 6 to 15.5 (btw cetyl is part of your oil phase too) and an emulsifier for water in oil emulsions at a rather low %. You probably need two emulsifiers with different HLBs to make sure that the formula is stable. Also, not related to the stability, as per my experience glycerine at % more than 4 tends to make the formula very tacky.
  • @sven I didn't say 5.5 is the top end. But Tattvas is looking for a natural preservative system (which are not broad pH like parabens and phenoxyethanol). The one I mentioned requires pH of not higher than 5.5 and I am saying that in the worst case scenario if no other preservative system works the formula can be adjusted for this preservative.
  • @ngarayeva001

    jojoba- 1% =                       hlb = 6.5/11=> 0.41
    shea butter- 2%, =              hlb = 2x8/11=>1
    Vitamin E- 1%, =                 hlb= 0.41
    safflower oil - 3 %=             hlb= 8x3/11=>1.5
    Almond oil - 3%,=               hlb= 3x7/11=>1.31
    Avocado oil- 2%,                  hlb =7x2/11=>0.87
    Beeswax- 0.5%=                  hlb => 0.5x12/11=.19
    seabuckthorn oil - 0.5 %=    hlb = >.13

    cetyl alcohol 4 % =  HLB required=>3.87

    total hlb = 9.69

    glycerin we were using 3 % earlier but we found it not upto the mark. trying another supplier for that




  • @ngarayeva001... i divided individual oil percentage with total and then multiply with individual hlb.. total oil percentage including cetyl is 16 not 11... though calculation is right.. so it will come across near 10
  • @Tattvas, I recalculated, and my number is also close to 10. So, Glyceryl Oleate alone is not the best option for this formula, because it has required HLB of 3.5. You can try  a blend of high and low HLB emulsifiers. Calculation is the same as for the oil phase. For example if you take PEG-100 (HLB 18.8) at 1.5% and Glyceryl Stearate (HLB 3.8) at 2% you will arrive to total HLB of around 10. I used this example because I prefer this particular blend, but if you don't want to use PEGs because of marketing, you can try combining Glyceryl Oleate with some high HLB emulsifier that will be in line with your marketing claims. Maybe Polysorbates?
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited September 2018
    One general comment on oils. You have a nice blend of saturated and unsaturated fats here, but I have an observation from reading ingredients of countless number of baby products. You will not see a lot of oils there. I remember I saw shea butter in one product, but they mostly use petrolatum and other syntetic oils. The reason is that syntetic oils don't cause allergies yet do the job (emollient). It also could be due to the fact that synthetic oils are cheap and people don't tend to pay much for baby lotions. Nevertheless, I would probably think twice about nut oils (Almond) in baby products.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    Your Tocopherol is far too high if you are at 1% net Tocopherol.

    Beeswax is NOT an emulsifier and as you can see actually has a required HLB of 12 (Calculations are based on http://pharmacy.creighton.edu/pha313/book/R-Chapter09.pdf)

    Your required HLB is 9.16

    My calculations are exact, but in the big picture, it is misleading. The HLB system is a guide to help design the emulsification system and does not always act as predictably as the math. It is a starting point.



    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Thank you for the guide @Microformulation, I guess my oils HLB list is less precise than yours as my HLB is 9.54. I agree it's a starting point and it doesn't always work as expected, that's why I suggested Glyceryl Stearate and PEG-100 mix. It works pretty well in this type of emulsions. Also, there is Cetyl Alcohol which is advised as a thickener for this blend in this formula. 
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 Actually, the values that we both arrived at are so close that they would be treated as identical for all intents and purposes when designing the emulsification system. Again, it is a fallacy to believe that the system is that precise.

    Also, we need to keep in mind that the HLB system works primarily with non-ionic surfactants. Many of these emulsifiers will not be allowable under any defined "natural standard" as they are ethoxylated. As you perform more Formulations under a natural standard, you will see HLB become increasingly irrelevant. You will more often see a ratio of emulsifier to oil used in these cases. In any case, the distributors provide great guidance.

    In the end, your best emulsification system will always be determined during the lab work. HLB gives a utopia result. Lab work gives us the actual best result.

    As for a preservative, I agree with @MarkBroussard about the Lincoln Fine Ingredients preservatives being an option. Keep in mind that regardless of how you go, you will want to use a hurdle technique to optimize your preservative system. You will want to do challenge testing of the final Formula. Lastly, any reputable manufacturer will be testing as part of a QA/QC Program.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    This is another option. It is an ECOCERT/COSMOS product.

    Now, no offense to anyone, please, but keep in mind that many of these newer "natural" preservatives are VERY sensitive to sanitary conditions during manufacturing. These conditions are difficult to achieve for some lines in their facilities.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @Microformulation can you suggest a high HLB emulsifier that might work with Glyceryl Oleate? I said potentially polysorbates, because I know that Sorbitan Oleate which is also low HLB mixes well with polysorbates.
  • @Microformulation, I only have experience with non-ionic emulsifiers so far. I don't know whether it's even scientific, but if I am not sure if the formula stable I am just adding a polymer emulsifier. They tend fix all imperfections. I understand that it's not an option with natural formulations though.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    This is the designed Emulsification system. It calculates the total emulsifier as 5% but this I will often tweak. Please don't be impressed by all the decimal points, as the math presumes a level of accuracy not seen in real life.

    I have the quoted HLB of Glyceryl Oleate as "3-4" per the Dermofeel PO datasheet.

    One error that was made was to break-up the PEG-100 Stearate and the Glyceryl Stearate up and use their individual HLB's. This combination is an extremely common raw material (Arlacel 165, Simusol 165, Tego 165) and the material combination has an assigned HLB of 11.

    So, in my case, you would have 5% total emulsifiers, comprised of 1.23% Glyceryl Oleate and 3.77% Arlacel 165.

    Lastly, any emulsification system should be stabilized. In this case, I would add either Carbomer or a natural gum (like Solagum AX) in the external (Aqueous) phase.

    My only concern is that if you infer a general direction of the original posted Formula, it looks like they are positioning themselves for a "natural" market. Most would have a problem with the Peg-100 Stearate and any carbomer.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • @ngarayeva001, @Microformulation... i have PEG 100 in stock...but  what about cocamide MEA in moisturizer?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Again the only reason I said PEG-100, is because it's high HLB and the mix with Glyceryl Stearate is commonluy used. Maybe Polysorbate 80 is an option? It is high HLB and as far as I know it is used in food, so should work in a "natural" formulation.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 When they suggested Cocamide MEA, he went way off the reservation regarding "natural." He would need to select another more acceptable high HLB product.

    The options are many here, but it seems as if the OP has limited availability.  It will be a matter of what is available, then what has the proper HLB and then "natural compliance."
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • thanks guys. i think i got enough ammunition to go for testing..will try polysorbates... i understand that one emulsifier should be higher and one should be lower to cover mean hlb calculated for the solution but when you try to go in natural category the list shrinks and higher hlb mostly are synthetic..we tried stearic acid and cetearyl alchohol earlier in some other same base product and it worked fine but we never check there stability beyond six months.
  • Polysorbate 80 is used in food industry. Don’t know if it passes as ‘natural’ because of it but it’s definitely safe. Regarding stearic acid and cetearyl, both are thickeners. Ceteatyl is a co-emulsifier but can’t be used alone. Now, they both can contribute to an unpleasant application and make lotions ‘foam’ (white trail). To reduce this effect you have to add silicones, which will not go well with ‘natural’ claim. Cetearyl works well with polusorbate 60, but both are rather high HLB. I think you should analyze ingredients list of ‘natural’ products in the market. The more you read the better your understanding of what they use will be. But again even when you google a perfectly safe ingredient you get chemophobic articles like ‘10 worst skincare ingredients’ or ‘why you should avoid Xx in your skincare’.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    At a minimum, a "natural" material should be plant-based minimally processed. As ethoxylated compounds, Polysorbates are avoided. Also, with the 1,4 Dioxane scare you will get some marketing pushback.

    Remember, "natural" does not equal safe. Synthetic does not equal dangerous. That is the Naturalistic fallacy.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Yes, makes sense. I was just thinking that it would be avoided in food for the same chemophobic reasons.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @ngarayeva001 Food Science is a separate discipline and it is a huge cognitive dissonance to blithely lump them together. The industries have different Marketing bias, different marketing emphasis, and numerous technical differences.


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
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