tear free baby wash tip to toe

we formulated a baby wash with
decyl, coco glucoside, coco betaine- 4 % total
xanthum gum-                                  1 %
soy-                                                  1%
sodium benzoate-                            2.5 %
alomond oil -                                    5%
jojoba-                                              1 %
glycerin-                                            2.5 %
glyceryl oleate-                                  1 %
grapeseed and watermelon for fragrance

cetyl alcohol-                                    2%
citric acid -                                  to adjust the ph to 5 as it was 7 initially
phenoxyethanal -                              0.3%

rest is water

the texture came very nice and smooth

but it still feels lil drying'

any suggestion?

Comments

  • Way too much xanthan gum, oils, sodium benzoate
    Way too little surfactant (not good choice of surfactnts too)
    if you want tear free, keep the pH 7
  • can you recommend good mix of surfectant we can use? pls
  •  Try something like this:

    Aqua – 56%

    Oatsilk – 1%

    Glycerin – 15%

    Xantham gum – 0.7%

    Cocamidopropyl Betaine 10%

    Decyl Glucoside – 3%

    Coco Glucoside – 10%

    Almond oil -3%

    Citric Acid -qs

    Paraben DU (Propylparaben, methylparaben, diazolidinyl urea, propylene glycol) – 0.4%

  • This is cold process formula. Cetyl Alcohol is not really required for it. It is not drying and absolutely tear free. I think you have a bit too much of oils (you can increase to 5% is you want). Fragrance is not reccommended for baby producs. There are some researches that show adverse effects of phenoxyethanol on baby rats (not on adult animals though) and I personally believe that parabens are safer, as they are more researched. Glycerine is too low in your formula. You can reduce to 10% if 15% is too much. % of surfactanct in baby product should be below 10%. Check with your supplier but usually surfactants you use have this %W/W: Cocamidopropyl Betaine - 30-38%, Decyl Glucoside - 50%, Coco Glucoside - 45-55% @Tattvas
  • Also, if you don't mind using silicones in your formula, you can try to adding some PEG-8 Dimethicone. It is a water soluble silicone. It gives a very nice feel to surfactant products.
  • thanks @ngarayeva001.. we are adding hydrolized soy for protein. i made another batch with same proportion you suggested but PH came near 4.5// can you suggest a safer way to bring it back to 7.. i also wanted to know in general in baby product how to make it alkaline without adding lye?
  • @Tattvas, this is a bit strange, because with my formula pH is usually around 8.5 and I add citric acid to reduce it. Can you post your updated formula? Another way to elevate pH is adding Triethanolamine, but there are certain restrictions regarding the % that can be used in the EU and I am not sure about usage of it in baby products. Again it shouldn't be that low. Also, you don't need to bring it to 7, 5.5 is ok.


  • What is  %W/W of your surfactants?
  • the citric acid added more than required was the culprit. the surfactants  Cocamidopropyl Betaine - 40 % , Decyl Glucoside - 33%, Coco Glucoside - 60% 
  • Oh I see. Add citric acid in the very end of the process. pH 6 is enough to be tear free. I feel that 7 is a bit too high. I usually make a very concentrated solution of the citric acid in deionised water (it doesn't typically need a preservative as the pH of the concentrated solution is 1) and then add it by drops. It allows to control the final pH.
  • Hello :)
    I could create a new topic I guess but I thought I would ask here as we are discussing tear free: How can we back up the claim "tear free"? All well and good to say it but.... any science out there...? Thanks
  • @Max I am not a chemist, but reviewed ingredients lists of many baby products. What they usually mean by tear free is sulfates free.
  • MaxMax Member
    edited September 2018
    Out of curiosity I look at the supermarket, and yes I agree this is the general idea, sulfate free, pH around 7, but not much science regarding the effect on the skin, eyes.... of coco glucoside for example or Cocamidopropyl Betaine...
     
  • I agree it’s worth researching. I know by my own experience that a face wash with SLES irritates eyes more than the surfactants mentioned above. You can apply it on your eyelids and open your eyes. I will post here if find any information from a legit source.
  • thanks, at the moment I am reading more on testings/assays...
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    If you read about baby shampoos, the tear free benefit is not linked to sulfate free or even pH at 7. It is the selection of the surfactants that being amphoteric surfactants. Here is a great summation from the Beauty Brains webcast; http://thebeautybrains.com/2010/06/how-is-baby-shampoo-different/




    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    edited September 2018
    @ngarayeva001
    Is that 10% active Cocamidopropylbetaine?
    or 10% as supplied ( about 3% active )

    Is almond oil (or any other replacement oil) a must? can you remove oils?
  • @Gunther ..yes we can remove oil. infact when we add oil the solution lose all its positives of good wash n shampoo.
  • @Gunther in my formula it's 10% as supplied which translated to 3-3.8% of active surfactant. Baby products should be below 10% of active surfactants. I think it works perfectly without any oil. Oat powder isn't a must either. It is just commonly used in baby products.
  • @ngarayeva001 ;

    Does glycerin has to be that high? Doesn't that leave a sticky afterfeel?

    Did Xanthan gum leave a slimy feel?
    Have you tried this formula with other thickeners, like Guar gum (plain guar gum, not the cationic one), or Carbopol?

  • @Gunther in surfactant products glycerine can be high and it doesn’t leave sticky afterfeel. Xantham does have a slimy feel. But it’s a baby product, so perceived safety is more important than aesthetics. I personally prefer PEG-150 (or crothix liquid that also contains peg-150) to carbopol as a surfactant system thickener, but it won’t work for a baby product because of marketing. Carbopol is also ‘a chemical’. I don’t have experience with guar gum.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    High levels of Glycerin can be sticky. In many cases, we decrease the Glycerin. High levels of Glycerin can be used if the Formula uses other raw materials to offset the stickiness.

    Experienced Formulators will often use a combination of Glycols. For example, my go-to is usually Glycerin, Propanediol and Methyl Gluceth-10.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • I never add more than 3% of glycerin to a leave on products. I my go to combination is butylene glycol, propanediol and glycerin but not sure it will work for a ‘natural’ surfactant product.
  • @ngarayeva001 did you use emulsifiers to hold oils in solution?
    Did the glucosides act as emulsifiers in that formula?

    May I ask why do you prefer PEG-150 to carbopol?
  • The glucosides and betaine act like emulsifiers. I prefer PEG-150 (particularly crothix loquid) because you add it in the end and control thickness. You can add more until you are happy with the result. Carbopol is less predictable. Maybe I am not too experienced with surfactants but I personally find crothix easier to work with. BTW if you use anionic and amphoteric surfactants you don’t need a thickener. In this case amphoteric and non-ionic are used.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 2018
    @ngarayeva001 You refer to PEG-150 as if it is a material. Do you know what PEG-150 refers to? Just an initial search shows PEG-150 in the name of at least 48 different raw materials used in Cosmetics.



    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited September 2018
    @Microformulation, thank you for correcting me. It might really sound confusing. I was talking about PEG-150  distearate:
    https://www.makingcosmetics.com/PEG-150-Distearate_p_303.html

    and  PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate (Crothix Liquid by Croda).
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    No problem. If you read up, the number relates to the average molecular weight of the ethoxylated compound. They are great products, but if you sell, any "natural" markets would balk at the PEG's.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PEG-150 distearate is useful but it has its limits, typically 1.5% in a shampoo, higher than that and you get a product that's like plastic.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GuntherGunther Member
    edited September 2018
    Can you use PEG-150 distearate along carbopol (to thicken sulfate-free surfactant formulations, CAPB+glucoside), and are there any advantages or disadvantages in doing so?
  • You could, if you wanted to change the sensorials from short to long flow.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • zaidjeber said:
    Way too much xanthan gum, oils, sodium benzoate
    Way too little surfactant (not good choice of surfactnts too)
    if you want tear free, keep the pH 7
    Hi,

    is the PH level main factor to avoid tea free shampoo or are there other ingredients that when above certain level cause tears ? If there are other ingredients, can you give please some examples ?
    Connecting molecules...
  • No, pH isn’t the only factor you should use amphoteric surfactants to make product tear free. Obviously ingredients such as essential oils have to be either excluded at all or uses at a very low %
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    No, pH isn’t the only factor you should use amphoteric surfactants to make product tear free. Obviously ingredients such as essential oils have to be either excluded at all or uses at a very low %

    Thank you. Amphoterics are the secret. There are numerous starting Formulas on Tear-Free Baby Shampoos, especially some ones from BASF.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Just this week I have heard this same claim from a line assigning "tear free" to pH incorrectly. Another favorite which you will see eventually is "they add novacaine to the shampoo." It is so much simpler and elegant in the Chemistry and the surfactant classifications.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Wow! It’s just beyond nonsense. I wish novocaine worked this way. Would be great for painful aesthetic procedures such as hair removal ? 
  • MaxMax Member
    dear all, expect the claims you can read on labels, as any of you see a proper scientific paper (S) testing surfactants.... to support the tear free claim? Of course not the unfamous Draize test! 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    I'm surprised that anyone is still using the Draize Test (and methodology - animal testing) for tear-free claims.  Most are now done on human volunteers and evaluated by participant responses and ophthalmologist evaluation.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MaxMax Member
    I read about many test available, but I am having hard time to find any good study to support the tear free claim. 
    I did not realize that humans were the new rabbits! LOL
  • If you, still, feel drying, there are several moisturizing agents in the Raw Material Market.  If you prefer Natural Moisturizer, you may use sodium PCA, Hyaluronic Acid, or Squalene.  This is if you like to stay away from the moisturizing Oil Blends.
  • Test on humans save the rabbits! Jokes aside I agree, some things can be tested on volunteers.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    We have used HET-CAM as our standard test for ocular/corneal irritation test. http://www.mbresearch.com/hetcam.htm


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Max

    I don't think you will ever find a study that will "support" the tear free claim ... this is really more appropriately a "non-irritating" claim ... but, when you're eyes are subjected to an irritant, you tear to wash the irritant from the eyes.  It's really only a matter of your test panel noticed irritancy, stinging, burning and tearing and to what degree or not.

    Rabbits, btw, do not have tear ducts ... so they never were a good model.  The type of test used depends on the type of product you're developing.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MaxMax Member
    Thanks all for the valuable comments :)
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