How can i give more fix and hold style to the hair with a dry look on the texture

hi guys, i need some help through this discussion here. I hope somebody could help me on my ongoing project here.

so right now i’m in the process of making a fiber wax. I’ve been working on the formula for 3 months, but i have never had the perfect formula(formula that suits me) well. 

The problems right now are
1. Texture is too soft and looks a little bit wet but I still have a solid texture, its just no grip. Did i use too much water in it? Or maybe too much oil in it? Or any idea? 

2. I did not have the hold that i want. Used maximum amount of PEG-8 Beeswax on 10%, pvp 4% and acrylate copolymer 2%. Any ideas? Should i add carbomer or ...?

Help me guys..
Thanks before

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    If you want help you need to give us a list of ingredients and ideally how much you're using.  Without that information there isn't much help that can be given.
  • Yes, we would need list of ingredients used and their percentages to really give any helpful info.
  • @Dirtnap1 @Perry
    im sorry

    i had many trials and errors and this formula is the latest one :

    ceteareth-20 6%
    ceteareth-25 4%
    dub-340 3%
    PEG-8 Beeswax 10%
    Lanolin 8%
    Water 59.5%
    starch 4%
    pvp k90 3,75%
    acrylates copolymer 1%
    preservatives 1%
  • Dirtnap1Dirtnap1 Member
    edited May 2018
    Any particular reason you are using cet-25? I would simplify and use cet-20. Lower lanolin a bit as it is taking away from the hold of the polymers and adding gloss if you are going for a matte finish. Lanolin wax may be a better option for thickening and adding less gloss. Or remove completely. Try kaolin clay as well. 

    The dub-340 (had to look it up) may also be creating the wet/creamy look you are seeing when mixed with the other emulsifiers. Play around with the ratios and water may be a bit high. Try reducing water until it thickens. 

    1.5% of PVP is the max I use in my formulas to thicken. 

    Do a search here for posts by Bill_Toge he has posted some formulations he uses which may help steer you in the right direction as well. 

    Take my word with a grain of salt. I am no chemist by any means. Just a hobbiest that started my own line with the help of the chemists here on this forum. 
  • @Dirtnap1
    thanks for your advice  :) 

    i was thinking just now to try the instructions that you gave me, but i was wondering in the same time if I reduce the water, lanolin, dub and pvp what should i use to fill the missing percentage on my formula or maybe i need to find another addition to the formula? If i added another thickener agent such as clays, wouldnt it be difficult to combine with starch? 

    Hahahaha the thing is ur were helping others in the way that u were able to, and its the purpose right.  :)

    Also i had this problem, sometimes my product is clumping in the end of the mixing process. Any ideas?
  • You would need to adjust the percentages to make up for anything you omit/reduce. QS the water until you get it to where you want consistency wise. 

    There are some online batch calculators to help figure out the weights/percentages. Do a quick google search for those. This will help when trying to get your total batch/formula to 100%

    Kaolin would replace the starch. But I have mixed a few clays together in some formulas, so again, trial and error with ratios.

    Can you give some info on how you are mixing and what size test batches you are running? What temps, type of mixer etc.


  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @Aldyppratama Think there has been a long discussion on hair pomade, search it here and you would get right pointers. Complete formulas have been posted in that regard. 
  • AldyppratamaAldyppratama Member
    edited May 2018
    @Dirtnap1
    Again thanks for your response Dirtnap1.

    Yes the water will surely adjusted later after I have the number of the other ingredients. Literally i use only notepad and calculator from my laptop to count the measurements. Maybe this would help me to simplify my works.

    As for changing starch to kaolin, i'll try it later. Starch has give the formula a huge amount of viscosity, and it also gives a smooth and soft after feel to the product. Any advice why i should use kaolin rather than starch except for the matte finish? did kaolin and the clays give more holds and textures? 

    if i was staying inside a room that have cool temperatures, my product will give a lil bit matte finish and hold otherwise if i was staying outside the room my hair will start to fall and look a little bit shine. Any ideas?

    I do 300g batch for formulation.
    I will differ into phase Water and Oil.
    First thing first i will make the oil phase, then put it into a hot plate until it reaches 80-85 degree celcius.
    While waiting for the oil phase to be ready, i will also put the Water(only) into a hot plate and wait till cook, and then  after the water phase reaches 80c i will put the PVP k-90, follow by starch and Acrylates. After 5 mins of mixing together the water phase. I will pour slowly the oil phase into the water phase(same temperature).
    I have been using a stick blender for the mixing.
    The moment when i almost finish pouring the oil into the water phase, it begins to start clumping on top of it. And i saw bubble-like coming of from the middle of the product. I think i wasn't letting any air here in the process, but it always coming off like this.
    Any suggestions? Do i have to mix a little bit longer?


    @Chemist77
    Thanks for your response Chemist77.

    Yeah i did  a lot of scrolling here but I haven't found anything identical with my product. Maybe need more scrolling though. But I will be more grateful if u can help me with my problems here.

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    I would disperse the PVP, starch and acrylates in room temperature water. Then heat up the water phase.

    Also, a stick blender is not a proper mixer for making professional level products. It's fine for a hobby but then you'll get stuff like air in your batch. Unless you're going to change your mixing equipment, you'll have to deal with air in your batch.

    To figure out what you need to adjust to give more hold, make it less watery, etc. you would be best served by doing a knockout experiment. Then you can see which ingredients have the most impact on those features you want to adjust. Then increase or decrease an ingredient until you get the performance you want.

    It's rare that there is some simple advice / ingredient that someone could tell you and it would fix a formula.  You have to experiment.


  • Aldy- I have never used a starch. Only clays such as kaolin and small amounts of bentonite clay in my hair products. Kaolin adds a very nice velvety slip and adds some texture. 

    What are your goals with this formula? Texturizing matte finish? Slick matte finish? Natural sheen etc?

    Use the stick blender to incorporate the starch into the water phase, but do try slowly blending when adding each part either by hand or another mixing blade. Stick blender will incorporate air as others have stated.

    Try slowly mixing the water phase into the oil phase and see if that helps. You need to continue blending while you are adding each phase or it will clump. 

    Add starch/clay to water and let self wet. Then mix before adding PvP/acrylates as they may combine with the starch causing clumping. 
    Just my suggestion.
  • @Perry ;
    thanks perry and much appreciated for the reply.
    i will try to use the knockout experiment soon as my materials arrive.

    yeah i know it will be much proper if i use the overhead stirrer, but the cost of an overhead stirrer is out of my budget here lol. Soon if i have enough budget to buy an overhead stirrer i will.

    I have been trying to use the original formula that I found on the internet and it didn’t work out, and then im making my own adjustment of the original formula. Still need more adjustment to make it perfect and found much problems here. Do you know how much typical usage of the PVP K-90 to use for a strong hold on the product? So it will give me an approximate percentage of my experiments. Thanks perry.


    @Dirtnap1
    thanks for the response dirtnap1, i can’t say much how i’m feeling more grateful here.

    From the information that you gave me, then i will use the clays for my next project(after i finish the first one obviously lol), i have been thinking alao about a next project with an ultra matte finish and hold. I will save this one for later then.

    right now my goal is to give the product a slick matte finish.  

    That will do. I will try those steps soon as my materials arrive.

    On a side note, is there a possible problem with my current formulation?
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    One step at a time,  just remove the 25 and use ceteareth-20 only. Use at least 20% minimum and adjust in water. Take it from there depending how it comes out. 
  • I don't see anything wrong with the formula, but it's completely dependent on how you feel about it once it's formulated. Be careful on preservatives as many are heat sensitive.

    The clumping may also be the cet-25 as it is a picky SOB. 

    You also need a fragrance unless you are not planning to do so. 
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    try adding PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil as well, say at 5% to start with; that can contribute a lot to texture and hold of this type of product
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • My secret weapon has been Kester wax k-24 at small amounts. Gives a nice silicone/velvety slip without being greasy. Definitely has a fairly high waxy scent to it, so need to be careful how much you add depending on fragrance.
  • @Chemist77
    thanks chemist77 for your response to these discussions here.

    yeah dirtnap has told me before, its better to use c20 rather than c25. But any specific reasons why  i should use c20 rather than c25? 

    @Dirtnap1 ;
    I put in the preservatives before i insert the oil phase into the water phase on 80c. I have been using phenoxyethanol, methyl and propyl paraben.

    and yes i will choose what fragrance i use after i finish my hold and texture of the wax on the formula. Any ideas what % i should for the fragrance? 

    Whoa thats very kind of you, thanks. The bad thing is i think i can’t find the product here in my country. Do you think If i get the right equilibrium on the cete-wax-polymer i used i can have strong holds? 

    @Bill_Toge
    Thanks bill and much appreciated for your response.

    I will try to use peg-40 if i have the right equilibrium of my formula and still didn’t have much hold. Does peg-40 give much viscosity to the mixture? 


  • GuntherGunther Member
    @Aldyppratama I got a feeling that your formula will benefit from adding Isopropyl Myristate, especially considering the high percentage of Lanolin in it.

    For genereal guidance please check out this patents on Isopropyl Myristate + Lanolin
    although they don't fully apply to fiber waxes.

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US3052608

    https://patents.google.com/patent/US3210248A/en
  • Dirtnap1Dirtnap1 Member
    edited May 2018
    Depends on your fragrance. But I would start at .4%-.5% and stay under 1% for most hair products. 

    Yeah, it's really going to come down to that fine line on proportions for the hold. Lubrizol makes some great fixatives if you have a rep in your country. 
  • @Gunther ;
    thanks for joining this discussion gunther.
    speaking of using Isopropyl Myristate, what is the use of that material? 

    @Dirtnap1
    i finally found the right proportions for the hold, texture and everything else! Thank you so much for helping me in so many ways. 

    Have you been using lubrizol?
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