oleic acid and sulphonic acid

dear all,

how i can neutralize sulphonic acid and oleic acid in same batch with potassium hydroxide?

sulphonic acid 8%
oleic acid 3%

potassium hydroxide %?

thank you
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Comments

  • DO not due it all in situ, sulfonate first and add sulfonated oleic to base.Better yet get Turrkey red oil, which is oleic sulfonic acid and just neutralize with NaOH.Add acid to base.
  • nabilnabil Member
    DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ, do you mean that i need to mix sulphonic acid to oleic acid FIRST. then add it to the base (potash).

    the naoh will give hard soap right?!
    nb: i do not have turkey red oil.

    thank you

  • first of all i misread oleic as castor oil so forget Turkey red oil I don't think you have the experience to do this yourself:you can buy potassium salt of sulfonated oleic acid at http://www.chemnet.com/cas/en/68609-93-8/9-Octadecenoic-acid-(Z)-,-sulfonated,-potassium-salts.html
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    What IS sulfonated oleic acid and what is it used for? I have oleic acid here and sulfonic acid ...
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • #Belassi  Surfactant good wetting and dispersant:sulfonate group on first carbon (opposite end of carbonyl moiety could make it a good lime soap dispersant.I am sure there are other suppliers but see:
    http://www.vicchem.com/prods/pdb/pdb-AUROPOL438.pdf
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    What is sulphonic acid? The term requires an identifier e.g alkylbenzene sulphonic acid.
  • I took it to mean oleum H2SO4.SO3 as used in sulfonation of Alkylbenzene but this is not relevant to fact you cant just mix these ingredients together as sulfonation is exothermic and requires special handling.Henkel uses SO3----https://www.google.com/patents/US5294726--net/net this is not formulation :it  is process development.I dont think query belongs in this forum.
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2017
    I've worked in a plant where oleum sulfonations were carried out. Not something I would carry out without full protective gear or without safety assistance!
  • Now you get my point.Respectfully I have carried out hundreds of sulphonations (big deal) and was in on conversion of branched chain alkylbenzene sulfonates to LAS together with the incorporation of the later into consumer products.
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    So if I go into my lab, get a beaker, add some oleic acid and then some sulfonic acid, it's likely to get very hot?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • What do you think?
  • nabilnabil Member
    Thank you guys for your valuable experiences.  Is it  possible to mix oliec acid and alkylbenzene sulphonic acid INSITU with KOH and how? 

    This might be dangerous and required safety procedures.  But FYI the volumes used are low. 

    Thx

  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    Why are you using ABS free acid rather than the much safer (and easier to store) ready neutralised material? Likewise with the oleic acid. Even though oleic acid is more or less harmless, KOH certainly isn't.

    By using preneutralised ingredients it will save you from some possibly complex calculations.
  • nabilnabil Member
    Johnb,
    that's mean that I can not do it!!!!? 
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    Yes, you can do it but I am trying to help you avoid having to handle dangerous chemicals and complex neutralisation procedures.

    Although the reactions involved appear to be simple and straightforward, the reality is that you are dealing with materials that are not 100% pure. KOH is normally only 80% concentration. Oleic acid is of very variable constitution depending on its origin and ABSA is of variable purity depending on the residues of acid(s) present and of the chain length distribution of the alkane used in the synthesis of the alkylbenzene.

    Far  better and easier for the producers of the prime materials (who already have the knowledge and experience required in dealing with their products) to carry out the rough work for you.

    I am all for an easy life and if I can get my ABSA already prepared as the potassium salt and my oleic acid as potassium oleate, I am all for that - particularly if, as you say, only small amounts are involved.
  • Johnb is right why complicate things just buy the materials neutralized and mix as you desire
  • BelassiBelassi Member
    alkylbenzene sulphonic acid
    Will you guys please get your information correct? Are we talking about sulphonic acid (a lime scale remover) or something else? It appears to me "something else" - I have been wondering why adding an inorganic acid to a fatty acid would achieve anything.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Finally found out the query was for neutralization of alkyllbenzene sulphonic acid together with Oleic acid using KOH in--situ. suggested he get samples of each finished pre-neutralized material and mix.Applicaion was not disclosed.
  • nabilnabil Member
    OK.  Thanks guys :) . I was asking to neutralise either alkylbenzene sulphonic acid and oleic acid as I am living in country where the finished preneutralized materials are not common stuffs here.  For a such raw materials need to be imported with big quantities.  This where my enquiry. Thx guys anyway 
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2017
    Belassi, please calm down and read through all the replies made here.

    Are you confusing sulphonic acid with sulphamic acid as a lime scale remover?

    Nabil, if you must neutralise the materials yourself it would be best to do this separately and mix the neutralised products. It will be necessary to titrate to amount of alkali required as, as mentioned before, the starting material are impure.
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