Pomade emulsion watery on breakdown

Hi all,

I am formulating an unorthodox water based pomade, and im happy with everything about the product besides the fact that when breaking it down in the hands it becomes very watery for a few seconds before getting stickier/waxier. Would reducing the water and increasing the liquid oil content solve this? if thats the case then would increasing the dry oil content prevent it from becoming too greasy? ingredients below...

water, beeswax, emulsifying wax, mango butter, hydrogenated castor oil, castor oil, jojoba oil, avocado oil, grapeseed oil, stearic acid, fragrance, preservative.

Thanks!


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  • I am beginning to think there should be a separate forum for people making these pomades. Apparently the age of antimacassars and Brylcreem has returned.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Also would there be any difference in swapping the emulsifying wax im currently using which contains -Cetearyl Alcohol/Ceteareth 20...
    ...for Emulsifying Wax NF which contains - Cetearyl Alcohol, Polysorbate 60, PEG-150 Stearate & Steareth-20e
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    @Belassi Good point. And many start with here is a product I like with lots of PEG's. I want to make it "natural" and it has to be as good, if not better.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • a separate forum would be great! but until then we are restricted to this forum. any info regarding the above would be very helpful
  • We are making the same thing Greg. If you want to trade notes feel free and contact me. I added soy Lecethin. I also think there should be more jojoba than butter in the formulation 
  • Also I have been  Using peg-40 hydrogenated castor oil and switching it out for hydrogenated castor oil instead.

    our product is right on with HLB numbers but coming out mealy. It hardens like oatmeal at 50c and I need to add preservatives under 50c , can I add vitamin e, liquid germall and essential oil at 60 c? Any answers greatly appreciated 
  • have just messaged you dude, vitamin e should be fine to add at 60, germall needs to be 50 though, essential oil will also be ok at 60. how is your formula with regards to the emulsion stability?
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    how are you manufacturing this product?

    forming emulsions requires a certain technique, or else it can go disastrously wrong
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • heating all oils/waxes (apart from essential oils and vit e) to around 80 degrees, then adding water (heated to 80 degrees) and mixing using a stick mixer. take off the heat and continue to mix/stir until cooled to 50 degrees then add preserv, vit e, essential oils, continue to mix until cooled to around 40 degrees, then pour.
  • everything is fine apart from the fact it breaks down watery in the hands, i may try using a different emulsifying wax containing Glyceryl Stearate & PEG-100 Stearate, which may help to stabilise the emulsion? as the one im currently using only has ceteareth 20 as an emulsifier.

    ive tried 6-10% emulsifying wax, but makes no difference to the break down.
  • any ideas on how to fix the emulsion break down issue @Bill_Toge ?

  • everything is fine apart from the fact it breaks down watery in the hands

    this is because you're applying shear to an unstable emulsion, the bonds break and the system fails.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Peg-100 Stearate and Glyceryl Stearate is not another Emulsifying wax. It is a common product (Arlacel 165, Simusol 165, etc.) that has an HLB of 11.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • johnbjohnb Member
    edited February 2017
    everything is fine apart from the fact it breaks down watery in the hands

    This is exactly how the original Brylcreem would behave if rubbed into the hands - it would break the emulsion into its separate phases. There is an important point here that seems to be forgotten about. The idea of using this type of product is to apply it to the hair, it is not hand cream.

    Brylcreem type hairdressing (applied to the hair!) would break down in the way described. The separated water would moisten and soften the hair and the oil phase would spread and form a coating on the hair ready to be styled with a comb.

    Original Brylcreem was a w/o emulsion of mineral oil and water emulsified with calcium soap formed in situ from lime water (calcium hydroxide solution) as the aqueous phase and a fatty acid in the oil phase.

    I am not suggesting you make a Brylcreem type product (it requires specific technique), just don't get too hung up on things that may be unimportant.

    BTW, what is the function of the vitamin E in the product? If it is to "nourish" the hair, remember that hair is dead tissue and no amount of nourishment will bring it back to life. If it is as an antioxidant, is it really necessary? There are other things you could use if you consider it so important.

    BTW2, have you considered the costings of this complicated mixture of oils?


  • Peg-100 Stearate and Glyceryl Stearate are sold as an "all in one" emulsifying wax, my thinking was just that it may help to have 2 emulsifiers working to bond the phases rather than just the one that is in the emulsifying wax i currently have.

    all of the "unorthodox water based" products i have used in the past do not have this break down, the emulsion seems to be stable even when applying shear. from what i can gather they are all also o/w emulsion which may have something to do with it?

    the cost is not a problem as bulk buying the ingredients significantly reduces the overall cost, and vitamin e as an antioxidant that also benefits the scalp and hair.
  • also ive seen a handful of people on here seem to have success using soy lecithin as well as an emulsifying wax, what do you think?
  • also i know people on here are generally against borax, but is it any worse than using an emulsifying wax with PEG's and polysorbates?
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    When talking about borax, what do you mean by "...is it any worse..."?

    Vitamin E does not have any measurable benefit to scalp.  It's included in hair care as a marketing ingredient. 
  • whenever anyone mentions borax there seems to be uproar about toxicity although many products still use it as an emulsifier. I am not getting the result I am looking for with my current emulsifying wax so borax and lecithin is another option.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Here is the toxicity report of Borax.
    "in concentrations < 5%, are safe as cosmetic ingredients when used as currently recommended"

    Here is the toxicity report of emulsifying wax if you're curious.
  • great thanks for that @Perry youre the first person who hasnt quickly shut down borax as a viable alternative
  • Perry, could you please paste a bit of what it says on emulsifying wax, it's asking for a log in
  • also @Perry any idea about long term stability of an emulsion with borax/lecithin?
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited February 2017
    Calling PEG-100 Stearate and Glyceryl Stearate an emulsifying wax is improper terminology. It can be used as a stand alone. Rather than belabor it, here is a link to a helpful data sheet that explains it's usage completely. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwuqL_fQzYhiZjlkSzREdm9xOE0/view?usp=sharing


    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ok thanks @Microformulation
     
    im going to try a borax/soya lecithin emulsification and see how that turns out. 

    from research ive gathered that the guideline ratio is 5% of the beeswax content for borax? will the remaining beeswax contribute to the 'hold' of the pomade? hope that makes sense
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @manny - “Toxicological test data on Ozokerite, Ceresin, Montan Wax, Paraffin, Microcrystalline Wax, Emulsifying Wax N.F, Synthetic Wax and Synthetic Beeswax are presented. Based on the documented animal and clinical test data, it is concluded that these waxes are safe for use as cosmetic ingredients in the present practices of concentration and use.”
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @gregwhite - Stability depends on how you make it and the other ingredients in the formula. 

  • Chemist79Chemist79 Member
    edited August 2017
    @johnb @Perry I would love to draw on your experience here regarding mixing method. I am formulating a Brylcreem type product but I am struggling with stability in particular temperature cycling/ freeze thaw. The current method I have been using is heat oil, calcium hydroxide and waxes to 80C, heat water and water solubles to 50C. Add water phase to oil phase slowly with stirring only to form a pre-emulsion. At 50C add fragrance, antioxidant and extracts and mix for 5 minutes before transferring to a homogeniser and high speed homogenise until a thick, white, glossy emulsion is formed.

    Any hints or tips would be greatly appreciated. @johnb I have messaged you separately with further information, I hope you don't mind but given your experience here any advice would be fantastic, many thanks in advance. 
  • I have the same issue.  I keep getting this mealy texture.  @gregwhite the only difference is that I am making a clay pomade.  Have you had any luck getting your emulsion go work?  Read my discussions. 
  • @gnomebeard same here, very light and yet clumpy.
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