salt thickening sulphate-free

BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
I have been experimenting with Innospec's sulphate-free blend, ISELUX SFS. It thickens with salt. My question is very simple. Which of its ingredients are the surfactants that thicken with salt?
Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate
Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate
Sodium Methyl Oleoyl Taurate
(it also contains CAPB but that's not the one)

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Comments

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    From what I find, I think it might be the taurate ... anyone?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • edited September 2015
    Has to be the taurate. I know for sure that it's not Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate or the Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate. I've used those both separately and they don't thicken with salt. 

    Why did you eliminate the Betaine? Betaine does thicken with salt : )
  • The Iselux SFS does contain CAPB.  The viscosity can be thickened by 2 ways.  You can add salt or you can add additional betaine. 

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    I don't think Betaine thickens with salt. I just tried it yet again to confirm it. I made a 20% solution of Dehyton KB and progressively added salt up to a total of 5%, in 0.2% increments. At no stage did it thicken.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    The CAPB is an amphoteric and the other 3 are all anionic surfactants.  So, the answer is all of them should thicken with salt.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    The information I have on the Iselux brand of Sodium Lauroyl Methyl Isethionate is that

    Iselux solutions thicken easily with electrolytes such as sodium chloride when used in combination with co-surfactants such as cocoamidopropyl betaine and sodium lauroamphoacetate.

    So it seems that only a combination of these surfactants results in the salt thickening behaviour.

    Cocamidopropyl betaine 30% solutions also contain salt at around 5% so this will contribute to the salt thickening behaviour.


  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    I've asked my Innospec distributor to see if I can get some Taurate. It's part of their Pureact range. I intend testing it for salt thickening and if it does, I will replace one of my current blend with it, to achieve:
    a) even more luxurious foam
    b) salt thickening and elimination of expensive thickener costs

    I've finished evaluating my current formula against the Iselux SFS formulations. Basically, my own formula is faster to first foam (with instant production of creamy foam), produces more foam, has bigger bubbles as well as creaminess, and better sensorials than the Iselux. My production cost for both is almost identical. I'm very happy with my work, to date, and I look forward to producing something even better at an even more competitive price.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @Belassi: I'm curious, is your own blend a combination of taurates and isethionates? I've been doing a lot of testing of my own with these ingredients and I've been pleased with the results. My focus is currently on foam and lather production, but I haven't had any problem thickening with salt.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    No. My own blend is carboxylate + CAPB + sodium cocoamphoacetate. It is superior to the isetheonates blend in Iselux and with less surfactant (25% vs. 29%)
    However mine doesn't salt thicken and the thickener at 4% is as expensive as all the surfactants combined.
    I believe that if I replace the cocoampho with the taurate I will get even better foam and at the same time be able to salt thicken.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • if you try playing with the pH and the mixture of surfactants you may be able to get the required viscosity without using any salt or thickener
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    I spent about two years experimenting. My fundamental problem is that one supplier won't supply what I need: AKYPO FOAM RL 40. (thickens with salt)
    An alternative will be to replace the third surfactant with a taurate so I am talking to Stepan about that.
    If I can get rid of the expensive thickener I am going to halve my cost of production and at the same time have a sulphate-free shampoo that is as foamy as SLS/SLES.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Stepan has a lot of different surfactants. I have been reading the PDFs but none of them state the important thing, which is: which ones thicken with salt?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    Sulfate free has always been a problem for me.  Being a contract manufacturer I never wanted to buy a blend but could never make the customers happy.  Recently tried a blend from Jeen and while it foamed well (I think) the customer said it left the hair feeling stripped.  Still searching for the good foaming, easily thickened sulfate free shampoo
  • @belassi: do you have any experience with dehyton ao 45? Basf claims it's salt thickening.
    http://www.happi.com/issues/2015-09-01/view_features/safe-green-mild/
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Thanks for that. I checked out BASF's sell sheet on ULProspector. I doubt that AO45 thickens (itself) with salt. It's being promoted as an alternative to regular CAPB like their PK45 product, and regular CAPB doesn't thicken if you add salt; rather, it can be used with anionics as part of a thickening system. I have another BASF betaine, AB30, and that doesn't thicken with salt although it will thicken an anionic system.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • @belassi: Interesting that the article states "some of its attributes include efficient salt response, effective viscosity builder, ..." which would lead one to believe that's all there is to it. Overly simplified reporting, I suppose.
  • BartJBartJ Member
    Hi, I wouldn't know what progress you've made since last year but just want to share something and exchange views.

    "I believe that if I replace the cocoampho with the taurate I will get even better foam and at the same time be able to salt thicken."

    I've got a sulphate-free formula thickened with Glucamate VLT but use disodium cocodiamphoacetate. I've found it has a better synergy with G-VLT than the mono version.

    I appreciate how other surfactants and additives could make your system different to mine, but my observation is that this one is a key relationship in the formula. There is a noticable difference in viscosity between monosodium and disodium.

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Wow that is interesting. I will check which version I am using. Thanks.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    Is the INCI name for this "Disodium Cocoamphodiacetate"? I can't find any manufacturers or other info (aside from a few patents) for "disodium cocodiamphoacetate".
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BartJBartJ Member
    Ah, a spelling mistake. Sorry. It certainly is disodium cocoamphodiacetate.
    I'm using Betadet THC-2 from Kao for my disodium, Dehyton MC from BASF for mono - just to be clear.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    I'll ask my Kao supplier for that. Thanks.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Really interesting post but is it sure that Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate wouldn't thicken with salt?
  • natrosol ftw
  • I know old thread.  But nobody mentioned this.  I have found that if you get Cocamidopropyl Betaine that already has a high concentration of salt that it won't thicken because you are already over the top of the salt curve.  We use a low salt Cocamidopropyl Betaine and low salt SLES for that reason.  It thickens very well.  In fact when we are struggling to get extra viscosity and we have already reached the top of the salt curve, we just add more Cocamidopropyl Betaine.  A very small amount makes a huge difference in this situation.
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