Trying to create mild soap bar - HELP!!

GowriGowri Member
edited June 2015 in Formulating
Hi all!
I am a new member of this discussion group. 
I am trying to make a mild soap bar with premade melt and pour soap base.( Ingredients: Certified Organic
coconut oil, Certified Organic palm oil, safflower oil, glycerin (kosher, of vegetable origin), purified water, sodium hydroxide (saponifying agent),sorbitol (moisturizer), sorbitan oleate (emulsifier), soy bean protein
(conditioner), titanium dioxide (natural mineral whitener)) . 
I buy this base from :
Here are the doubts I have about making this soap to have more lather and skin loving properties.
1. Can I add Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate (noodles) to the above melt and
pour soap as it is without melting? ( at 5% by weight) 
2. Since the final product's Ph is above 7, can I add citric acid to adjust the Ph?.            
If not Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate can anyone suggest me a mild biodegradable surfactant that I can add to the soap base?Any help would be appreciated.

Comments

  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    1) No.
    2) No. If you adjust the pH down, you will destroy your soap.
    3) Try one of the sugar-based suractants
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • GowriGowri Member
    WOW!! Thank you so much Bobzchemist. That was a very valuble advice,else i would have spoiled the entire batch of soap.
    I tried adding Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate (SLL) at 5%.It was mild and gave a good lather.But the texture of the soap felt like a solid rock. And then i added Decyl Glucoside ( i dont remember the % but it is less than 10%) which did not impart any mildness to the soap.
    I was thinking of adding Panthenol to give some skin loving properties (at 2% ).correct me if am wrong.
  • I hate to tell you this, but I will. Melt and pour soap is inherently inferior to cold process or hot process natural soap and also inferior to syndet bars such as Dove. And expensive. It is a craft market thing for the inexperienced.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GowriGowri Member

    hey Belassi ,thanks for
    your opinion, but can you be more elaborate about how its inferior? Just curious
    to know. I saw this video of Lush bath soap. The process quite looks like
    a melt and pour soap. I am wondering if I am  right or wrong.

    (Ingredients:Water
    (Aqua) , Propylene Glycol , Rapeseed
    Oil , Coconut Oil (Brassica
    napus; Cocos nucifera) , Sodium
    Hydroxide ,Fragrance , Dried
    Apricots (Prunus armeniaca) , Dried
    Currants (Ribes Nigrum) , Titanium
    Dioxide , Glycerine , Dried
    Cranberries (Vaccinium macrocarpon) , Olibanum
    Oil (Boswella Carterii) , Bergamot
    Oil (Citrus Aurantium bergamia), Sodium
    Chloride , EDTA , Tetrasodium
    Etidronate . *Occurs naturally in
    essential oils)

  • BelassiBelassi Member
    edited June 2015
    Lush sells cold process soap as far as I know. You can see they are using rapeseed oil (it will be high oleic and standing in for olive oil) and coconut oil with NaOH. Everything after that on the list is <1%
    Melt and pour ... crap. Doesn't foam. Hobby garbage.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GowriGowri Member
    Hmmm... you are right, it dosent foam.It functions "like" a soap.But the ingredients for the melt and pour and cold process looks just the same..i am not able to spot the difference.

  • Do your research with Google and on soap forums and you will discover what melt and pour is and how it is made.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • georgeteddergeorgetedder Member
    edited June 2015
    I sort of disagree about melt and pour soaps. Some of the bases which BrambleBerry sells, on top of being extremely mild, lather very well, and hold fragrance very well. Some of them are detergent based melt and pours, so they're not true soaps; but they do carry true soap bases from SFIC (Shea butter base comes to mind) which, all be it a little expensive, lather extremely well.
  • georgeteddergeorgetedder Member
    edited June 2015
    In fact, the ingredient list what you posted above looks like an SFIC base. The image online however, is that a glycerin soap, which always get really sticky in my opinion. Try the oatmeal or Shea butter base, and I think you'll find that you won't have lathering or mildness issues. I, too, prefer cold process soap, but, for melt and pour I think there are some good options.
  • Melt and pour, to me, has always been those glycerin concoctions which look pretty but don't actually function.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GowriGowri Member

    Melt and pour soap is a hot process soap with some kind of an
    alcohol (ethanol,
    isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol), Glycerin and sugar water solution added
    at the gel stage.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2nw4CBN_RC0

    I buy melt and pour from SFIC. Nice quality soap, have no
    other surfactants added to the mix. It is not as effective as cold process /hot
    process soap. But mild enough and cheap! I buy the base from amazon where a
    pound of soap is not more than $10, which brings the cost $0.625/Oz. But if I have
    to buy very good quality cold process soap, it will be around $1.5/Oz.

    Ref for melt and pour:

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00D8G8KEG/ref=s9_simh_gw_p201_d0_i3?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=desktop-1&pf_rd_r=14MFAJZJ0HQKSAXDPNF9&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2079475242&pf_rd_i=desktop

    Ref for cold process soap:

    http://soaptopia.com/soaps
    ( I bought this from wholefood at $1.5/Oz)

    https://www.etsy.com/listing/181414490/natural-handmade-soaps-organic-vegan?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=cold%20process%20soap%20homemade&ref=sr_gallery_19

    https://www.etsy.com/listing/223557769/all-natural-orange-soap-handmade-soap?ref=related-7

    My final thoughts –Melt and pour - It is what it is, not super-efficient
    to be used as soap but can be used as embeds in the soap and make soap making more
    interesting and fun. Will I still use melt and pour? Yes, but just for fun and
    make the product look more interesting.

  • a pound of soap for $10? That's $22 per kilo. Good grief.
    I prepare 2Kg per batch of cold process soap and sell it at a profit at $30 per kilo retail! The cost of oils and NaOH and fragrance will be around $3.50 per kilo. You're sure of your prices? You seem to be paying way too much.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GowriGowri Member
    edited June 2015

    You can check the links I posted. When compared by kilo, the
    melt and pour is still $8 less. I get what you are trying to say and I don’t deny
    your statement about the quality of melt and pour. But the process and
    ingredients are the same for both the soaps.

    I would love to have a look at the type of soaps you make, if
    you are willing to share.

  • Red Berries soap.
    Mint soap.

    We make about 8 different types of cold process soap including an exfoliant bar with bentonite clay. Planning to add goat's milk soap shortly. It is not a big market for us, even though we are the lowest priced producer, but the colours and aromas attract customers who go on to buy other things.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Regarding price, you should be able to do as well as us. We buy 25 Kg containers of palm oil from a large local cooking fat producer, we buy high-oleic safflower oil from Costco which replaces more expensive olive oil, and we buy coconut oil in 20Kg drums from an outlet of KemCare, a UK based multinational with a presence here. The other main cost is the fragrance. About 4$ plus labour, manufacturing cost per kilogram.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • georgeteddergeorgetedder Member
    edited June 2015
    @Belassi I like the images on the website you posted links to. In regards to SFIC bases, if you order directly from them, you get them for less than two dollars a pound. That's without shipping, of course. Minimum order quantity of 250 pounds is a bit hefty, but it's actually quite economical if you are a high-volume soap sales person. Like I said, I prefer cold process soap but try out their shea base, it's good!
  • GowriGowri Member

    Very Nice soaps Belassi !

    Note that I make soaps out of hobby. As georgetedder said, if we buy in bulk it is actually pretty cheap, good for high volume production. And again, melt and pour cannot compete with the mainstream soap, but they are not bad either.

  • Thanks for the kind comments. Liquid soap dominates my market; I can't compete with synthetic liquid soap that sells for a dollar equivalent, complete with pump bottle. It costs me a dollar for the bottle and label alone.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • GowriGowri Member

    I like all types of soaps... I have a crazy collection of all colored and beautiful smelling soaps!especially hand made..they are unique and mostly gentle on the skin.

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