Formulating a cleansing oil for the very first time

Hello everyone. Im trying to develop a cleansing oil formula and was wondering if cleansing oils are mainly made of carrier oils and emulsifier? Also how many carrier oils is it recommended to have in the cleansing oil( in my formula i put 10 vegetable oils, is it too much?)in regards to the emulsifiers i read that we should steer clear from Polysorbate 80 as this one is irritating for the skin and not suitable for senstive skins.I also read that the best ones are PEG-10 Isostearate/ PEG-6 Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides/Polyglyceryl-3 DiisostearateAlso how many emulsifiers can we use in a cleansing oil? I thought we could only use one! What is the best emulsifier that removes eye makeup and stubborn sunscreen without stripping the skin of its natural oils? Kindly help me through this first product im developing:) Thank you very much . 

Comments

  • Is that your personal experience with Polysorbate 80? It is pretty gentle, and if that is irritating, most of the other would be worse.
    So, have you actually tried Polysorbate 80 and determined it's irritating, or have you read somewhere that it's irritating?
  • I agree with @ngarayeva001. If you check similar formulas from big brands, you'll see that they use non ionics (like polysorbates or poloxamers) because of their low irritancy. Also, since those formulas are low in surfactants, it's better to use light oils (natural oils are too heavy....and yes, 10 is too much).
  • Hello everyone.I apologise for my late reply. 
    To answer you ngarayeva001, i did some extensive research and found that Polysorbate 80 is irritating and thus since im targeting women who wear makeup aged 30-40, this information made me tell myself: ok dont use polysorbate 80 at all! I asked the manufacturing to use Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate. Is it okay if i mix it with the Polysorbate 80 for sensisive skin?
     
    Also can it be used to remeove eye makeup such as eye shadow, mascara, and lipsttock/lip gloss? 

    How many emulsifiers can we mix in one formula? 

    Thank you Ketchito for your feedback.It also helped especially when you said 10 oils are too much !How many oils can i put in my formula? So 10 is too much :) How about 5 ? What can i do to make it a special/unique oil or formula?

    Thank you for your support and insights:) 
  • There are multiple types of facial cleansers such  gel cleansers, micellar water, cream cleansers, cleansing balm,foam cleansers, clay cleansers.
    What problems do cleansing oils solve for makeup wearers that other cleansers dont solve? 
    How can i set myself apart when promoting my cleansing oil to people who wear makeup? 
    Thank you all:)

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ghita37

    The first rule to formulating new products is that there are not really any rules, per se.  You can put as many or as few oils and emulsifiers as you like.  Your best bet would be to survey the best selling cleansing oil products to understand what consumers are purchasing and what reviewers are recommending.  This will guide you to the proper mix of oils and surfactants that are proven to be liked by consumers.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Hello MarkBroussard.Thank you so much for your response as well. I actually did an extensive research and studied cleansing oils such as DHC cleansing oil, Josie Maran cleansing oil, Bobby Brown to name a few and saw where people complain the most. For instance the bobbi brown one irritates the eyes, so this begs the question: is a cleansing oil suitable to remove eye makeup? the idea is that i want to make a cleansing oil for the entire face so people save money, they wont need to purchase an oil for the lips, one for the face and one for the eyes area but i don't know if this is possible? Also the bobbi brown cleansing oil features Isopropyl Palmitate which has a comedogenic rating of 3/4 so this is a no no:) So my idea is to come up with a cleansing oil that: removes debris, spf, makeup fast, /doesn't leave a greasy film on the skin/ moisturizes/cleanses  without irritating the skin/ non comedogenic. 

    Also do you think that Glyceryl Behenate/Eicosadioate is necessary? it increases the viscosity and Boscia cleansing oil features this ingredient and people rave about the Boscia Oil. 

    Last question, what do you think about these emuslfiers for sensitive skins" : Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate and Polysorbate 80? 

    Thank you very much 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited November 21
    Ghita37 said:
    Also the bobbi brown cleansing oil features Isopropyl Palmitate which has a comedogenic rating of 3/4 so this is a no no:) So my idea is non comedogenic. 


    Thank you very much 
    Many people fail to grasp the concept of comedogenic.  This rating is made at 100%.  Meaning they apply JUST that material.  A lot of the ingredients that have a comedogenic rating, you will find when they are included at typical rates in formulation....say under 5%, that rating becomes ZERO.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ghita37

    I don't think you benefit any from more than 3 carrier oils and Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride should be one of them.  For the other two select oils around which you can build a marketing story.  No, you don't need a thickener for a cleansing oil ... to what benefit?  Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate and Sorbeth-30 Tetraoleate are good surfactants/emulsifiers of a cleansing oil.  I would not use Polysorbate 80 for this application.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Ghita37 said:
    since im targeting women who wear makeup aged 30-40
    I think your target is a little too vague, you might have to be more specific.
    Identify your customers - like
    - what states will you be selling mainly
    - how big is 30-40 female population in that area
    - average incomes, how much they're willing to pay for your cleansing oil.
    - competitors
    - alternative products 
    - which ingredient is a no no, which ingredient will be your main star in case you will put out other products.
    - ...
    - ...
    - ...
    - ...
    These details may help you narrow down your choice of ingredients in your formula.

    Ghita37 said:
    There are multiple types of facial cleansers such  gel cleansers, micellar water, cream cleansers, cleansing balm,foam cleansers, clay cleansers.
    What problems do cleansing oils solve for makeup wearers that other cleansers dont solve? 
    How can i set myself apart when promoting my cleansing oil to people who wear makeup? 
    Thank you all:)

    This should be the first question you have to answer yourself, why did you choose cleansing oil over others?

    Cleansing oil is mainly made of carrier oils, emulsifier and marketing, keep formulating until you get your Ah Ha (borrowed from @Graillotion) product. 


  • Hello Graillotion, thank you for your precious information.So a carrier oil can be comedogenic but when you apply it in a low concentration then its no longer comedogenic? Also should the concentration always be 5%? But since im formulating a cleansing oil, it cant be 5%, it should be more so in that case the comedogenity wont disapear? And what about the Isopropyl palmitate, i found this highly comedogenic which is the Bobbi Brown oil might have caused breakout. 

    Hello MarkBroussard, thanks for your valuable feedback:) Super helpful as well. Someone in this conversation thread here mentioned that Polysorbate 80 is not irritating while countless articles online mentioned otherwise. What 2 other oils Mark would you recommend that could be used to craft a compelling marketing story. By the way im targeting women aged 28-38 who wear makeup, work in offices, travel, have an active social life. 

    Thank you all for your help in the matter:) 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ghita37

    Comedogenicity:  Scientifically, this is a very flawed concept in the way these comedogenicity lists are determined.  But, it is a marketing issue you need to be concerned about.  Just stay away from oils that are commonly considered to be comedogenic. 

    For instance, you could use a combination Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Squalane and Marula Oil.  Read the markting claims other companies make about Squalane and Marula Oil to craft your marketing story.  The two "right" oils are the ones that sell, so pay heed to what is used in oil cleansing products that have lots of positive reviews and appear on multiple "best of" lists by product reviewers.  As @Pattsi mentioned, lots of companies have already proven this market and consumers have expressed their preferences so you have some guidance as to what sells.  The issue is how can you stand out to grab some sales.

    Polysorbate 80:  This is an open forum with people of all levels of skill set posting comments.  Most are not formally educated in cosmetic chemistry and don't formulate cosmetic products for commercial sale, so you have to take some comments as well-intentioned, but not necessarily accurate, nor actually researched.  So, rely on your own research much more so than a comment someone made on a blog.  

    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @Ghita37 Did you by any chance checked the CIR report for polysorbates? (https://www.cir-safety.org/sites/default/files/polysorbates_0.pdf). In page 35 you can find the review of data for irritation and sensitization:

    Irritation in humans



    Sensitization in humans



    In page 36 there is also new data to the previous review:



    If you read the full review, you can even find ocular studies, which also showed their safety. As mentioned before, highly ethoxylated non ionic surfactants are very mild, and that's why they are chosen for baby (tear free) shampoos and skin cleansers for sensitive skin.
  • @ketchito thanks for the link to Polysorbates which I have now stored away for reference. I use Polysorbate 85 + Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside in a body cleansing Oil (I dont use on my face but I guess you could). I recently used Polysorbate 80 + Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside (I didnt think would be much difference ha !) and I wont make that mistake again. With Polysorbate 80 it  doesnt go milky and emulsify on my skin like the one I make Polysorbate 85 and kind of gels on my hands (probably some type of reaction going on I have no idea about!). It also feels warm when I apply - so will be throwing that batch out. Any idea what else I can do with my Polysorbate 80 or should I just throw out? Cheers 
  • @Squinny Polysorbate-80 is a monoester, while Polysorbate-85 is a triester; that's why the water solubility of Polysorbate-80 is higher (it has a higher HLB) than Polysorbate-85. Perhaps that's why you saw the gel-like phase with the latter. I wouldn't throw the emulsifier you got, I'd just use it with a more fitted system.
  • Hello everyone. im so grateful to all of you here for shedding some light on the matter. 
    @Pattsi, apologies as i just saw your message by the way. Your points in regards to the target are so constructive. You asked me why i chose a cleansing oil over any other face cleanser. The reason is because oil based cleansers are the first step in the skincare routine of a person who wears makeup.You might ask why didnt i choose to make a cleansing balm? I thought the cleansing balm might not suit the eye area. 

    @MarkBroussard thank you for your support. Could you explain what is meant by Comedogenicity is a marketing issue i need to be concerned about. I dont have marula and squalane.I have oils such as grapeseed oil, sunflower, hempseed oil, roseoil, castor oil, coffee oil( need to double check this one) I also intend to add some vitamin c and some hyaluronic acid, green tea extract .I want it to deliver .Also what do you mean that the right oils are the ones that sell? so this means i dont need 1000 oils and i should pick two and also what do you mean i have some guidance as to what sells? 

    @ke@ketchito thanks a lot for your link. i read on page 36 of the link you sent me the following: In a clinical test, polysorbate 60 at 100%, polysorbate 80 at 100%, and sorbitan monostearate, ethoxylated at 25% were not dermally irritating.So this means Polysorbate 80 is not irritating. Articles on google can be so confusing, they all all mentioned that Polysorbate 80 was not good for sensitive skin. 

    @s@Squinny thank you also for your reply. You said that Polysorbate 80 doesnt turn the oil into a milky texture, so then if i want my cleansing oil to turn milky polysorbate 80 is not the best emulsifier for that? At the end of the day, should a cleansing oil emulsifiy? Does the milky texture serve like a water base to remove the dirt and grime left over from the oil cleanser? 

  • Ghita37 said:
    Hello Graillotion, thank you for your precious information.So a carrier oil can be comedogenic but when you apply it in a low concentration then its no longer comedogenic? Also should the concentration always be 5%? But since im formulating a cleansing oil, it cant be 5%, it should be more so in that case the comedogenity wont disapear? And what about the Isopropyl palmitate, i found this highly comedogenic which is the Bobbi Brown oil might have caused breakout. 


    Even with something like a cleansing oil.... unless you have access to the mfg formula...you cannot tell what is in it at 30%...or what ingredients might be there at .01%.  Granted the first one, two or three...are probably at a substantial level...after that....you'll typically find the more expensive oils....will be at an incredibly low rate (Actually...their goal is for you never to find this out.).  As it sounds like you might be new at this, small amounts like .01 or .1% are common inclusion rates of what we call 'claim' ingredients (those are often more expensive ingredients or ingredients that sound nice, but don't really bring actual value, just perceived value).  Something that they like to bark loudly about on the label and marketing...but is in there at such a low rate, it does absolutely nothing....(granted we never discount the placebo effect... users will often boast about how well an ingredient included at that kind of rate....made their skin ________(fill in your own lovely adjective).)

    Cosmetic ingredients below 1% inclusion (quite different than food) may be listed in any order the maker chooses.  So, just because something might be listed 4th on the INCI....it might be included at .01%, and something last on the INCI might be included at .99%.

    So, in a commercial product...they might easily use the first oil at 90+%....and what you might perceive as a balanced mix....is far from it.
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited November 24
    Ghita37 said:
    Hello everyone. im so grateful to all of you here for shedding some light on the matter. 
     

     Could you explain what is meant by Comedogenicity is a marketing issue i need to be concerned about. I dont have marula and squalane.I have oils such as grapeseed oil, sunflower, hempseed oil, roseoil, castor oil, coffee oil( need to double check this one) I also intend to add some vitamin c and some hyaluronic acid, green tea extract .I want it to deliver .Also what do you mean that the right oils are the ones that sell? so this means i dont need 1000 oils and i should pick two and also what do you mean i have some guidance as to what sells? 



    I think I understand where you are coming from...and let me see if I can clarify some REALLY broad concepts.  Where to start...hehehe.

    And maybe you will wish you had not stumbled onto this site...as you may leave disillusioned.

    A while back.... someone in a different thread.... posed the question...why do so few cosmetic chemists have their own lines of products.  And I think the answer that rang the most true and poignant in my opinion was...."It is hard to market things you don't believe in".

    I used to help out on a 'beginner' cosmetic site (had to finally leave because the 'certificate holders' were driving me absolutely insane with their .....Hmmmn....'knowledge'.  :D  ) I am familiar with the thought process, and perceptions people enter the arena with.  So I will link a great video created by a PhD cosmetic chemist.  It will help you understand oils.  Once you understand oils...you will begin to understand the comments people have made about oils... Why you don't need so many....just a few key oils that will 'sell' the product.

    If I had to wager....I would guess that you believe all the different oils...bring some magic to your future potion.  This is mostly mommy blogger lore.  Sorry....the dream is gonna start to crumble.... run while you can!  You have probably been led to believe that oils are this beautiful amalgamation of fatty acids, each one eager to help your skin out.  In  reality....these fatty acids are bound up in a triglyceride...making them pretty much unavailable to your skin.  This will be well explained in the material I will link.  Now if you consume these oils.... let's use the example of Krill or fish oil, your digestive tract will break these triglycerides apart, and you will realize any benefit these oils have.  Your skin....well not so much.
    So, the skin itself has no real mechanism to break down a triglyceride....HOWEVER... there are some residents in and on your skin (friendly bacteria) that can break down a small...and I mean SMALL amount of triglycerides.  This is the only fatty acids you might realize from some magical, exotic sounding oil.  But keep in mind....the only reason the bacteria went to the effort of busting the triglceride....was so it could eat a portion of what was broken out.

    So don't mistake what I am saying... I firmly believe skin gets benefits from oil...but NOTHING NEAR what the mommy blogger sites preach.  Yes, oils of different make-ups will feel different...and absorb at different rates.  But as far as that magical benefit purported by the oil sellers.... well...you may need to do some research.

    So NOW...if you look at some of the comments...as to why you don't need 10 oils....maybe you can achieve some clarity to the intent.  One two or three oils will do all that oils can do.  You still need to choose them wisely, because they will have different feels and absorption rates.... but all that magic the mommy blogger sites have promised....you will not achieve.

    So, choose the oils...that give the feel you are after.  After that....choose the oils that will sell, because that is what will determine your success or failure.  Did you attract the attention of the buyer.  And most importantly..... provide beautiful packaging, and a stunning story....and you are well on your way.

    Please watch the attached video...is I think it will provide you with incredible clarity.  (Remember she is a PhD....IN THIS FIELD!)

    Aloha.

    Skincare Oils and Free Fatty Acids: The Science (with video) | Lab Muffin Beauty Science

    the video:  Skincare Oils and Free Fatty Acids: The Science | Lab Muffin Beauty Science - YouTube
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited November 24
    Now obviously you do not want to use this information in your marketing.  You stick with the 'lore' and describe how wonderful each of the fatty acids in your product will benefit the purchaser's skin.....and how much beauty and youth your product will bestow.  :)   Good Luck!

    PS: And some oils do have some free fatty acids....but for the most part....they are bound triglycerides.

    If you really want to take this further.... research....fermented oils.  Where a bacteria has been introduced...and some of the triglycerides have been broken out.  

    If I thought the customers were educated....that is the approach I would take. :) 
  • Thanks @ketchito appreciate your knowledge you pass on. Any suggestions of what I can use the Polysorbate 80 in? I only products for myself and family and have 1 kg bottle! If not no worries. Have a good day :)
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ghita37

    In developing cosmetic products you often have to formulate around widely believed myths that are not factual. 

    Most comedogenicity ratings were determined over 50 years ago by rabbit ear assays as opposed to testing on human skin.  But, many people believe the comedogenicity ratings so even if the rabbit ear assy is not an accurate model for human skin, they believe the ratings to be valid.  No point in including oils in your cleanser that many people consider to be comedogenic regardless of whether or not that is factually correct.

    No one oil is going to be any better an ingredient in an oil cleanser than any other oil ... the surfactant will do most of the work.  But, you will notice that Olive Oil and CCT are included in a couple of popular products, so that's a good place to start.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Thank you all for your continued support and contribution :) 
    @Graillotion in your message you said few things id like to understood a bit deeper. Granted the first one, two or three...are probably at a substantial level...after that....you'll typically find the more expensive oils....will be at an incredibly low rate (Actually...their goal is for you never to find this out.).  As it sounds like you might be new at this, small amounts like .01 or .1% are common inclusion rates of what we call 'claim' ingredients (those are often more expensive ingredients or ingredients that sound nice, but don't really bring actual value, just perceived value).

     Im not sure i get what you say here. In my example of my cleansing oil, i will use 3 or 4 ingredients max( caprilyc, grapeseed oil, argan oil, rose oil, all non comedogenic, the concentration of these 3 oils will be high because this is what the cleansing oil will be made of , the rest will include vitamin c, HA, green tea extract,what do you think of this ixture? You said the most xpensive oils will be at a low rate, but if im using the 4 ingredients here why should i put low rates? You said small amounts of 0.01 ! or 0.1%, you mean if i use grapeseed oil it should represent 0.01% of the entire formula, well thats practtically nothing, this is not a cleansing oil then lol

    Then you said ingredients below the 1% threshold can be placed in any order, this i get ti very well. So this means that if my oils have a rate of 0.01% or 0.1% this means they will be at the end of the ingredients deck but then what would make the bulk of the formula if the main oils are at 0.01% ?Im so interested in understanding this point here 

    Also what do you mean here? 

    So, in a commercial product...they might easily use the first oil at 90+%....and what you might perceive as a balanced mix....is far from it. 
    So lets say i have my grapeseed, argan, rose oils and caprylic , so lets say i decide to put 90% of argan oil in my cleansing oil, the remaining 10% will be split between grapeseed, rose, caprylic, HA, green tea, polysorbate 80, Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate, well then its not going to be a cleansing oil but mainly an oil cus the 10% will be split.

    Thank you for your time and support :) 
  • Dear @Graillotion, you said its hard to market things you dont believe in and this is why cosmetics formulators dont have their own line.So how come there are succesful brands in cosmetics, does this mean brands lie to their customers and the succeess is not in the product or the formulation but in: knowing the target audience, their pain point, crafting a compelling brand story and having a social media strategy? i always thought the success would be partly acheived thanks to a product of high standards because if someone buys a product once and doesnt like it they wont buy it twice, so a good product is partly helping achieve the success, the other part is in what i mentioned: marketing and branding, do you agree here ? 

    You said i dont need those 10 oils i was going to include in my cleansing oil but i only need a few that will sell the product.I dont have squalane nor do i have marula, so does this mean i wont be able to craft a compelling story? 

    Also what benefits does the skin get from oils? From my numerous reading and courses i undertsood that oils mainly play the role of occlusive, they bind or seal water in the skin and this is why when our skin is damp we should use oils to preserve that water in the skin, same goes for when we apply a cream or lotion, always follow it with oil to seal the hydration and prevent water from evaporating. wHAT do you say? 

    You said: But as far as that magical benefit purported by the oil sellers.... well...you may need to do some research. well the only beenfits i see are 1- fast makeup removal process cus oils remove everything fast as opposed to water, soap, musline cloth etc, for someone who wears makeup id advice a cleansing oil or balm i wouldnt advice soap that might affect their skin barrier, i wouldnt advice a gel which can dry out the skin. Do you agree? 

    Im not sure i know what the mommy bloggers sites say but when i did my research on cleansing oils i didnt read anythign fancy, on the contrary they said oils dissove oils and its true, take a swatch of lipstick in ur hand and remove it with oil, its gone pretty quickly , so this is not a lore here :)

    Could you kindly assist me here when you say: 

    So, choose the oils...that give the feel you are after. ( so the feel im after is a light texture for the cleansing oil, a texture that doesnt leave a film once we wash the face)  After that....choose the oils that will sell( you mean an oil around which i create a story, but any oil would do, rose oil can be used for a story just like argan oil or sunflower, hempseed, castor, coffe, do you agree? ), because that is what will determine your success or failure.  Did you attract the attention of the buyer.  And most importantly..... provide beautiful packaging, and a stunning story....and you are well on your way.For the story, you mean does it have to be related to how the product is used or what kind of story?

    You are leaving me with lots of knowledge and im grateful to you :):smile:



  • Example


    Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil**, Polysorbate-80**, Polysorbate-20**, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil**, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Citrus Grandis (Pomelo Grapefruit) Seed Oil**, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil**, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil**, Tocopherol, Sucralose**

    1. Sunflower - could be up to 90% - it is quite cheap.

    2. Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil**, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Citrus Grandis (Pomelo Grapefruit) Seed Oil**, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil**, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil**
    you will never know (unless you have the master formula) how much they are actually in there - can be 0.0001 - 0.1 or maybe 1 each.

    3. Argan oil is the main star here as they have other products which use argan oil as the star ingredient as well.

    How will you know which oil should be your star? - As I said, knowing your targeted audiences, you will find the lead to which oil they think highly of, it doesn't have to be squalane or marula, it can be any oil which your customer valued. 

    Ghita37 said:

    Also what benefits does the skin get from oils? From my numerous reading and courses i undertsood that oils mainly play the role of occlusive, they bind or seal water in the skin and this is why when our skin is damp we should use oils to preserve that water in the skin, same goes for when we apply a cream or lotion, always follow it with oil to seal the hydration and prevent water from evaporating. wHAT do you say? 

    Not in the case of cleansing oil - cleansing oil was designed to strip make up and 99.99%  will go down the drains unless some cleansing oil was formulated to leave some thin film after rinse off.


    Ghita37 said:
    Dear @Graillotion, you said its hard to market things you dont believe in and this is why cosmetics formulators dont have their own line.So how come there are succesful brands in cosmetics, does this mean brands lie to their customers and the succeess is not in the product or the formulation but in: knowing the target audience, their pain point, crafting a compelling brand story and having a social media strategy? i always thought the success would be partly acheived thanks to a product of high standards because if someone buys a product once and doesnt like it they wont buy it twice, so a good product is partly helping achieve the success, the other part is in what i mentioned: marketing and branding, do you agree here ? 
    It is the combination of both, you may have heard some influencers/youtubers
    put out shitty products with super compelling stories, after first lot - failed. And the other way around very high quality product with out marketing, how will customers know your product and want to try it, got impressed and come back.

    You can have 3 or 10 whatever you like, just that the main carrier oil is cheap, easily sourced, stable and have the texture your customers like, your may want to skip mineral oil tho.  

    Ghita37 said:
    For the story, you mean does it have to be related to how the product is used or what kind of story?

    Not necessary - depends on your targeted audiences.
    Some lines have their stories related to their products, some lines have their products related to their stories. 


  • Ghita37 said:
     

     from oils? From my numerous reading and courses i undertsood that oils mainly play the role of occlusive, they bind or seal water in the skin and this is why when our skin is damp we should use oils to preserve that water in the skin, same goes for when we apply a cream or lotion, always follow it with oil to seal the hydration and prevent water from evaporating. wHAT do you say? 


     

    .For the story, you mean does it have to be related to how the product is used or what kind of story?











    I think Pattsi has covered most of your Q's.

    It sounds like you understand the oil aspect, and their function.

    So marketing is the biggest part of anything cosmetic.  Some might say...there is nothing new under the sun.  Big cosmetic companies to some degree...mill out the same old base formula...with a different scent, packaging, and claim ingredient each season.  Which for all intents and purposes....is the same old thing...just freshened up.

    Regarding story...well not a story of how to use it...that would be rather boring... yawn, yawn.  People want to hear how your product has a special magical ingredient that they are not going to find in the $5 drugstore brand.  They want to feel like they are saving the planet...by buying your product.  They want to feel like the landfills will have to close...if they buy your product.  They want to feel like buying your product will end childhood poverty....hehehe.   You get the picture.  Go to the websites of competing products...that you respect and want to emmulate.  Read their stories....I guarantee they have a story.

    So as mentioned by others... Either create your story first...and build a product around it... Or build your product, and then creatively tell a compelling story about your product...and why your target customer will feel better for having purchased your product.

    By the way.... if you have never felt squalane before.... I'm not sure what all the hype is....but it basically feels like mineral oil.  I think people just like the sound of the name?  (But it does sell product.)

    So.... pick your oils....or pick your story...and then progress based on the first choice.
  • Hey Pattsi,
     thanks a lot for your input.

    1-When you say the cleansing oil will go down the drain unless it is formulated to leave a film after rinsing off.Thats actually a common complain from a lot of people saying that once they wash theyr face the cleasning oil leaves a film and the skin feels greasy.sO what would bt e ingredients guilty for creating that film on the skin? 

    2- Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil**, Polysorbate-80**, Polysorbate-20**, Carthamus Tinctorius (Safflower) Seed Oil**, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Kernel Oil*, Citrus Grandis (Pomelo Grapefruit) Seed Oil**, Vitis Vinifera (Grape) Seed Oil**, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil**, Tocopherol, Sucralose**

    You gave me this formula as an example.So are you trying to say that brands use the cheap oils in high dosage( sunflower for instance) and expensive oils are used in small dose like argan, safflower, grapeseeD.
    Also if im correct ( kindly confirm) in your inci list you sent in order of concentration, sunflower is the product with the highest dosage, followed by the emulsifiers then safflower and the rest? 

    3- you said argan oil here is the star ( but lets face it, we are misrepresenting the customers since argan oil is used in low concentration, the customer foesnt get any benefit of argan oil they get the beenfits of sunflower and the emulsifiers, correct? 

    4- when you said i will never know the concetration of the other oils ( argan, grapeseed, safflower, etc) and they can be in can be 0.0001 - 0.1 or maybe 1 each.is there a rule for that? i mean after the first oil in the list, anything that comes after is that low you mean? 

    5-you said some influencers put out low quality product and compelling stories yet the product failed, why is that? 

    6-You can have 3 or 10 whatever you like, just that the main carrier oil is cheap, easily sourced, stable and have the texture your customers like, your may want to skip mineral oil tho.  
    So here you are saying i should make sure the main carrier oil should be cheap, in that case argan oil as the main carrier oil would not be a good choice since its expensive, right? and so if i take the main carrier oil as sthg cheap, the other oils can be of the "expensive" category and these are the oil i should craft the story around right? ( i mean out of the the other expsnive oils i pick just 1 and create a story for it, right??0

    Thank you Pattsi for your input and recommendations, im expanding my knowledge some more :) 
  • Dear Graillotion

    Thank you so much for your efforts and continued support. 
    1-you said cosmetics are all about marketing.I agree 100% but if the product is good, then it starts to market for itself,people talk about it and encourage others to buy it.Fir the first time when you sell a product i understand that marketing helps but will it help the second time if the first time people were not satisfied with the product? Even Pattsi said that some influencers put out lousy cosmetics with captivating stories yet the product just failed and others put out stupendous products with no marketing and succeed. How would you please explain this phenomenon? 

    2-so the story based on what you said is about the star ingredient in that cleansing oil for instance right? But when i go to competing brands and check for instance their cleansing oil. Can you please have a look at the DHCCARE website, its a Japanese brand and their cleansing oil is famous.
    https://www.dhccare.com/deep-cleansing-oil.html 

    I don't see any story here about the oil, could you please tell me where it is? 

    3-I created the product first and now i will have to think about the story.So since i have 3 products in my line( cleansing oil, spf, face scrub) this means i have to come with 3 stories right? and also mention why the target will feel better in their life after purchasing these 3 products. 

    4-Also id like to show you the emulsifiers that i have available, could you tell me if these are safe and non irritating? 
    stearic acid 
    Ceteareth-25
    glyceryl Stearate
    CETEARETH-20
    Cetearyl Alcohol
    Cetearyl Glucoside
    Lauryl Glucoside
    Polyglyceryl-2
    Dipolyhydroxystearate(peg 30)
    Polyglyceryl-3 Dicitrate/Stearate
    Sodium Stearoyl Glutamat
    Polyglyceryl-3 Diisostearate)

    5-Are cleansing oils W/O or O/W emulsions?From my understanding they are W/O. 

    This is a lot of knowledge here and im grateful to all of you to contribute to it here:) 

  • A question i forgot to you:) 
    Are cleansing oils better suited at removing eye makeup as opposed to cleansing balm.I read about these two a lot and this is why i wanted to start with a cleansing oil because i read in many articles that they are better at dissolving mascara, eyeshadow and lipstick than balms.
    What is the view of the experts here on this point? 

    I was thinking to myself : ummm If both cleansing oils and balms exist its for a reason , what is it that oils do that balms don't and vice versa? Otherwise why would formulators come up with a cleansing oil and cleansing balms.Both are for a specific target who is looking for something. If i create a for instance a sunscreen that is tinted and a sunscreen that is invisible its because one creates the effect of wearing makeup and the other doesn't and i created the tinted one because i saw that people don't want to wear makeup but instead want to wear spf and protect themselves all the while looking like they are wearing foundation. so same for cleansing oils and balms, why did chemists came up with cleansing oils, i'm sure they didn't mix ingredients and Hallelujah they had an oil, they knew what they were doing and knew they wanted a cleansing oil. 

    Are cleansing balm more fastidious t use than cleansing oils? Are cleansing oils more messy than balms? Are cleansing oils better at removing mascara because lets face it, how am i going to apply that tiny scoop of balm in my eyelashes whereas with the oil i can just pump a tiny bit and put it on my lashes?
    Also balm its not very hygienic cus lets scoop out a dime-sized dollop for the cheeks and then for the forehead and then chin and then eyes, so i assume i will have to scoop out maybe twice and fingers wont be clean the second time i do it. 

    Just trying to figure out out loud with you all how to advertise my cleansing oil? This cleansing oil will be OURS not just mine  :) <3  

    Thank you all for the love and support here 
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited November 27
    Ghita37 said:
    Dear Graillotion

     

    2-so the story based on what you said is about the star ingredient in that cleansing oil for instance right? But when i go to competing brands and check for instance their cleansing oil. Can you please have a look at the DHCCARE website, its a Japanese brand and their cleansing oil is famous.
    https://www.dhccare.com/deep-cleansing-oil.html 

    I don't see any story here about the oil, could you please tell me where it is? 




    Their story...is under the tab 'Our Story'.   ;)

    There are even several 'sub-stories' in the story.  Thank you for picking such a perfect example.  This is exactly what I/we mean by telling a story with your product.

    Our Story – The #1 Direct Skincare Brand from Japan | DHC (dhccare.com)
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ghita37

    DHC actually has two stories.  There is the brand story under the tab "Our Story" and also a product story specific to their cleansing oil product on the product page.

    It sounds as though you are looking in your cupboard and trying to determine what ingredients you have in stock that you can throw into a cleansing oil product.  That is a recipe for failure since you are focusing on what ingredients you have in stock as opposed to what ingredients you can incorporate into a cleansing oil that would be competitive in the marketplace and then purchasing the ingredients you don't have in stock.

    I would suggest you try to make a version of the DHC cleansing oil, but using different oils.  Using products highly regarded by consumers and reviewers as development models is a good way to learn how to formulate superior products.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • SquinnySquinny Member
    Thanks @Graillotion and @MarkBroussard I learn so much from you guys about products I have never seen before. The Cleansing Oil has only a few ingredients from DHC which I love and will have a play with this one next year for myself.  The ingredients listed for the one I like the look of is : Deep Cleansing Oil: olea europaea (olive) fruit oil, caprylic/capric triglyceride, sorbeth-30 tetraoleate, pentylene glycol, phenoxyethanol, tocopherol, stearyl glycyrrhetinate, rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) leaf oil. 

    MySkinRecipes has sorbeth-30 tetraoleate at a reasonable price - do you guys reckon (and I am only making for myself not to sell) it is worth getting stearyl glycyrrhetinate as this is quite expensive and usage from what I see at 0.5 to 1.5% - does it really do anything if just in a cleansing Oil or could i skip that? Alos MSK recommends using Sorbeth-30-t with a non-polar oil (sorry where do I find out what polarity an oil is?) - thanks if you guys have time to answer and sorry if I have hijacked the thread! 

    @G@Ghita37 - MSR has a basic Cleansing Oil formula using sorbeth-30 tetraoleate so maybe look at that as a start too? Not sure where you are based but you can check out site here if you wish Oilsify 30 (Sorbeth-30 Tetraoleate) (myskinrecipes.com) - Cheers

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Squinny

    Stearyl Glycyrrhetinate ... nope.  It will just get washed off when you rinse off the cleansing oil with water.  Polarity of oils ... just Google and you'll find some information.  
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • SquinnySquinny Member
    edited 4:31AM
    @MarkBroussard - Many thanks Mark that's what I thought for Stearyl Glycyrrhetinate so thanks for confirming that for me, So all Oils are non-polar or did I misinterpret what I read? Cheers and thanks again :) I assume the Oils in the Deep Cleansing oil are non-polar so would be ok to use Olive Oil and MCT which I have both (mind you I also have a number of other oils) - Jojoba, Sunflower, safflower, grapeseed, Camelina, Hazelnut, Macadamia, Avocado .... 
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