Which is best alternative to increase viscosity for such product?

FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
  I made no sulfate shampoo every thing was, good except viscosity the formulation contains:
Coco glucoside
CAPB
Carbomer
TEA
PQ7
Water
 So what you suggest as better ingredient to increase the viscosity of my combination?
 @Perry @Abdullah @ngarayeva001 @Pharma @Bill_Toge @chemicalmatt

Comments

  • If even at that level of surfactants the carbomer is effective, why not just increase the level of carbomer then? If it isn't effective then I would question its inclusion and switch to one that is compatible like Acrylates Copolymer.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @RDchemist15 actually I know that almost Carbomer are electrolyte sensitive, just I want to see what it gives then I added slat to see if it will work for adding viscosity but unfortunately I did not (I have some success with system Carbomer,TEA, CAPB, N70  with adding slat it increase viscosity)
      I have as reflex xanthan gum, and cellulose so thanks for the input. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    I don't think salt will help thicken that system. Perhaps a cellulouse like Hydroxypropyl Methylcelluose would help.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    Thanks @Perry
  • Yeah, even if you would build some viscosity with carbomer (which I doubt coz you're using CAPB), once you add salt, it will all turn water thin. 

    You don't need to use sulfates as your primary surfactant. There are milder surfactants on the market and there is possibility they will thicken with salt. 
    E.g. Taurides, Isethionates (although they are a bit more expensive if compared with sulfates). [Sarcosinates also, but they are trickier to thicken]

    Or use HPMC as Perry suggested. 
  • How much glucoside is there? 
    Maybe replacing it with lauryl glucoside will help with some viscosity.

    In my opinion the best option is to use xanthan gum+ guar gum. The viscosity will be more than using them alone.
  • I believe lauryl glucoside is even harder to thicken? 

    But yeah, better grade of Xanthan Gum would be great. [I never paired it with another gum, so cannot confirm]. The standard (200 mesh I believe) is just disgusting :D stringy and snotty ...
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 13
    @Paprik actually for economical reason and also accessibility i'am trying to keep my ingredients as much as possible , for the moment may I can interduce (sodium cocoamphoacetate, Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate), appriciate your input. 
    @Abdullah the level of use of coco glucoside is 6%.(what ratio you recommend for xanthan and guar gums) 

     I see in humble and me that carrageenan is more recommended then xanthan gum for cleanser gel. 
  • Paprik said:
    I believe lauryl glucoside is even harder to thicken? 

    But yeah, better grade of Xanthan Gum would be great. [I never paired it with another gum, so cannot confirm]. The standard (200 mesh I believe) is just disgusting :D stringy and snotty ...
    caprylyl capryl glucoside is very hard to thicken.
    Decyl is hard.
    Coco doesn't effect viscosity much.
    Lauryl increases the viscosity. 
  • That much glucoside may not be compatible with HPMC. You may test it. 

    I saw the maximum viscosity with 20% xanthan gum and 80% guar gum. You can test it.

    I don't have experience with carrageenan.


  • This shampoo would be very drying and not cleaning properly. 

    Have you used it for some time continually?
  • On its own, viscosity of decyl glucoside is like glycerin and viscosity of lauryl glucoside is like shea butter. 
  • Fekher said:
      I made no sulfate shampoo every thing was, good except viscosity the formulation contains:
    Coco glucoside
    CAPB
    Carbomer
    TEA
    PQ7
    Water
     So what you suggest as better ingredient to increase the viscosity of my combination?
     @Perry @Abdullah @ngarayeva001 @Pharma @Bill_Toge @chemicalmatt
    @Fekher That system would thicken if you add DEA cocamide due to a good interaction with CAPB (perhaps MEA cocamide would also work). If you want some salt response, you need to add an anionic surfactant (you need some anionic charge to boost micellar entanglement when adding salt). Alternatively, you could add Crothix liquid or similar which are designed to thicken these type of systems.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah actually i'am developing it (shampoo without sulfate) so no I did not use continually and why you predict That it will be not cleaning properly and very drying?
    @ketchito thanks for the input DEA  I want shampoo free from sulfate and I have in hand Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate, so may adding it with salt help for viscosity? 
  • Sarcosinates can thicken with presence of salt, but it's not as easy as it is with sulfates or Taurates. You might still need some gum to thicken the system. 

  • Because when i wanted to make sulfate free shampoo, i also did  start with CAPB and APG. So have some experience in it. 
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah soo clear then what tension actif did you see not drying for free sulfate shampoo?
    @Paprik thanks a lot 
  • SCI  or iselux or sulfosuccinate would be my suggestions. What is cost you less. 
  • Paprik said:
    Sarcosinates can thicken with presence of salt, but it's not as easy as it is with sulfates or Taurates. You might still need some gum to thicken the system. 

    I agree with @Paprik. Sarcosinates are hard to thicken. If you could add some olefin sulfonate, then you could use both the thickening from your betaine and from added salt. Taurates could also work.
  • hydroxyethylcellulase ie natrasol 250 HHR
  • HEC is terrible in surfactant systems. Never had a success with it - always separated. Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose would suit better.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited September 14
    Yeah, we used HPMC in our shampoo until we removed it in a cost savings measure.  HEC was in our conditioner formula. (VO5)
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 14
    @Abdullah I found a lot of commercial shampoo a Johnson, Souplesse wich have main ingrédient CAPB then glucoside may be you got your result because the level of use of ingredients
    @ketchito I tried your suggestion it is just perfect good transperancy, acceptable viscosity... So it is really very precious input thanks a lot. 
     Thanks @Perry @Paprik ; @DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ   for your comments. 
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    edited September 14
    Perry said:
    Yeah, we used HPMC in our shampoo until we removed it in a cost savings measure.  HEC was in our conditioner formula. (VO5)
    What have you replaced it with? If you don't mind telling us? :)

    Also, how did you process it? Have you thicken it prior to adding surfactants or at the end? 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    edited September 14
    @Paprik - we just removed the HPMC. It turns out no one could tell a difference and salt worked fine as a thickener

    we added it right in the beginning, right after the water and dye and before the surfactants 
  • @perry - Thank you! That is actually good to know. 
    Sorry, one more question. Did you "swell" it also before surfactants or at the end? I read some brochures about Methocel and they recommend to swell it before, so just double checking :) [It kinda does not makes sense, as it won't swell with all available water from the formula, but hey, if they say it, right? :D] Thanks a lot!
  • @Paprik let me tell you a trick. 
    Some HPMC thicken instantly when mixed with cold water and some takes a few hours later. Use the version that thickens after a few hours, add it after everything else and before NACL or you can add some of it to NACL solution too( if you are worried about swelling all available water, although it doesn't matter in my opinion). Final viscosity will be very low but enough to prevent HPMC from precipitation. You can fill bottles very easily  and my even wash the tank very easily because of very low viscosity and product will thicken after a few hours inside the bottles. 
  • Perry said:
    Yeah, we used HPMC in our shampoo until we removed it in a cost savings measure.  HEC was in our conditioner formula. (VO5)
    Can i ask why you were not using HPMC in conditioner when it costs less than HEC and provides much higher viscosity?
  • Perry said:
    @Paprik - we just removed the HPMC. It turns out no one could tell a difference and salt worked fine as a thickener

    we added it right in the beginning, right after the water and dye and before the surfactants 
    Can i ask how much HPMC were you using that no one could notice the difference in foaming?
  • @Abdullah thank you mate! 
  • Fekher said:
    @Abdullah I found a lot of commercial shampoo a Johnson, Souplesse wich have main ingrédient CAPB then glucoside may be you got your result because the level of use of ingredients
    @ketchito I tried your suggestion it is just perfect good transperancy, acceptable viscosity... So it is really very precious input thanks a lot. 
     Thanks @Perry @Paprik ; @DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ   for your comments. 
    You can test it yourself. Less than 1% glucoside has no problem with HPMC but higher amount does. As it was from long ago I don't remember from what amount of APG the problem started. 

    You can thicken water will HPMC, then add APG to it and see with how much APG it loses it viscosity. 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Paprik - no we never pre-swelled it.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 28
    Update using : water, CAPB, cocoglucoside, CDEA, PQ 10 I could reach acceptable viscosity but still lower then ordinary shampoo. Just for drying purpose I added 5 % (glycerin/MPG) then it gives better conditioning effect for hair and no drying effect however the bad surprise in such level foam decrease a lot.

    So i'am thinking to make tests with different level of (glycerin/MPG) to decrease drying effect and preserve acceptable foam
     Any interpretations, comments, suggestions ? 

    @ketchito @Paprik @Abdullah @Perry @ngarayeva001 ;
  • Fekher said:
    Update using : water, CAPB, cocoglucoside, CDEA, PQ 10 I could reach acceptable viscosity but still lower then ordinary shampoo. Just for drying purpose I added 5 % (glycerin/MPG) then it gives better conditioning effect for hair and no drying effect however the bad surprise in such level foam decrease a lot.

    So i'am thinking to make tests with different level of (glycerin/MPG) to decrease drying effect and preserve acceptable foam
     Any interpretations, comments, suggestions ? 

    @ketchito @Paprik @Abdullah @Perry @ngarayeva001 ;
    I don't think glycerin will remove the type of drying that CAPB and APG is causing. 
    Maybe that effect is from pq10
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited September 29
    @Abdullah actually when the formulation contains pq10 without glycerin it was drying however adding glycerin decrease a lot that effect. 
  • Fekher said:
    @Abdullah actually when the formulation contains pq10 without glycerin it was drying however adding glycerin decrease a lot that effect. 
    It is interesting. 

    I think with or without glycerin, only pq10 will sty on hair. Glycerin and all water soluble things will be rinsed by water. 
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