Questions about raw materials when making a conditioner (manufacturing processes)

LabLab Member
edited August 16 in Formulating
Hey guys! How are you today? 
I'm trying to make some conditioners (lab scale, 50-100g) but some questions came up in the process. I'm glad if someone can help me with this (:
(I'm not the one formulating in this case, I'm just making the products following the formulas that came to me and the doubts are about the processes involved)

1. Cetrimonium Chloride / Behentrimonium Chloride
  • Question A: Can I heat these ingredients?
  • Question B: If yes, it's a need/must? (the point here is to understand if heating affects the appearance/function of the final product and how)

2. Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride / Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine
  • Question A: How are you used to handle with it?
  • I - Make a paste in some humectant (glycerin/propylene glycol...) [this one only for GHC]
  • II - Just heat and homogenize (in the aqueous phase)
  • III - Add to aqueous phase and acidify the system (before or after adding other components/phases?)
  • IV - Other (can you explain, please?)
  • Question B: The ideal pH (final product) when formulating with these ingredients must be around 5,0 - 5,5 or lower?
Thanks in advance and have a nice day/night! :blush:

Comments

  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    1A - Yes, you can heat those ingredients
    1B - No, you do not have to heat them unless they are solids in which case, yes you have to heat them.

    2A - Just add it to the water phase (before heating). GHC. For Stearamidopropyldimethylamine, add it to water when the temperature is above the melting point (~65C)

    2B - For a hair conditioner, lower. pH ~4.0
  • LabLab Member
    Thank you so much for your quick feedback, @Perry ! I will pay attention to your guidelines. :smile:

    I'm just not sure about the ingredients in topic 2, as I've heard a few times about the need for neutralization for Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine and that GHC thickens better after acidifying the system. The technical materials I found diverge on this information, which makes it a little confusing :confused:
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    My answers come from the experience of using both of these ingredients in numerous formulations & batches. I never neutralized SAPDA nor acidified GHC. 

    But that’s how they behaved in my systems. Perhaps your experience will be different 
  • LabLab Member
    Perry said:
    My answers come from the experience of using both of these ingredients in numerous formulations & batches. I never neutralized SAPDA nor acidified GHC. 

    But that’s how they behaved in my systems. Perhaps your experience will be different 
    Thanks again for your time, Perry!

    I ordered some technical materials directly from the suppliers who send us these raw materials and I will try both ways to see if there is any visual or sensory difference at the end. If I don't see any relative differences, I'll opt for the simplest process (as you mentioned) (:
  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    You will want to add lactic acid to gain the viscosity and stability build with STPDA, generally 3:1 amine to acid (depending on the acid), and as Perry points out, pH4.0 is best. Different acids have pronounced effects with STPDA, i.e. glutamic acid gives you 4X more viscosity than lactic, but is 4X more expensive. You can have a lot of fun here. Another aspect of your conditioner, a Perry also knows, is if your final batch viscosity is running on the low side, just add a little salt solution and it will thicken up big time. Who needs guar HPTC? Just gets in the way.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    You will want to add lactic acid to gain the viscosity and stability build with STPDA, generally 3:1 amine to acid (depending on the acid)...
    3:1 mass or mol fraction?

  • LabLab Member
    You will want to add lactic acid to gain the viscosity and stability build with STPDA, generally 3:1 amine to acid (depending on the acid), and as Perry points out, pH4.0 is best. Different acids have pronounced effects with STPDA, i.e. glutamic acid gives you 4X more viscosity than lactic, but is 4X more expensive. You can have a lot of fun here. Another aspect of your conditioner, a Perry also knows, is if your final batch viscosity is running on the low side, just add a little salt solution and it will thicken up big time. Who needs guar HPTC? Just gets in the way.
    Wow, this about the salt solution is really interesting! Never heard of it before, do you have any more information about it? My knowledge is still a bit shallow, so I figured that only sulfated systems (shampoos, body washes, etc) thickened with salt (and that this didn't apply to conditioning systems in general). :dizzy:

    The reason they chose GHC is that it was in the benchmarking that the formulator used to assemble the formula, so he chose to keep it in the system in order to get closer to the market product.  :D

    Also, an update: I received the technical materials I requested earlier and one of the suppliers instructed the following proportion relate to acid vs. concentration (for every 1g of STPDA). It's in Brazilian Portuguese, but the order is: hydrochloric acid, anhydrous citric acid, phosphoric acid and lactic acid.


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