Would it be possible...

JuggsyJuggsy Member
edited August 16 in Formulating
I've read the threads on using triethyl citrate (TET) as a buffer for urea (10%) cream - from what I understand, I would add the TET directly to the formulation? But that doesn't seem right? I would assume like when using NoAH or Citric Acid - I make a solution first? What would I use as the solvent? Water? Glycerine? What percentage would I use? Should I make a 1% solution? Or a 50% solution? 

Then I had the thought that I have sodium caproyl/lauroyl lactylate (and) Triethyl Citrate - could I use this in an attempt to lower offset pH rise in an urea hand cream? Anionic W/O Emulsion. 

I know this is a bit of a newb question but I've searched and not found much other than a couple of patents and studies - but they weren't necessarily in relation to cosmetic formulation. 

I am studying dip in personal care formulation - so I am learning. I just need some direction - I know it's not an easy thing to stabilise. I did have some success with a low percentage (5% - formula follows) but there seems to be debate about whether it does anything. My partner has awfully cracked hands and I've made them a cream that seems to help but I really would like to add more urea. 

My Basic Formula:

%            G             Ingredient

q.s to 100               Water 

5.00                       urea

2.00                        Hydrolysed Wheat Protein

3.00                       glycerine

4.00                       Sodium lactate

2.00                        Propanediol 1,3

0.2                          Aloe barbadensis Leaf Extract

4.00                       glyceryl stearate and PEG-100 stearate

10.00                     Camellia Oleifera Seed Oil

2.00                       Cetyl alcohol

10.00                     Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis

0.5                          Diazolidinyl Urea (and) Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate

2.00                       dimethicone

1.00                       Cyclomethicone

0.5                          Lauryl/Myristyl Polyricinoleate (and) Glycerine

0.5                          Terminalia ferdinandiana Extract

0.5                          bisabolol

0.2                          EDTA

0.2                          Allantoin

q.s                          Citric Acid


Comments

  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited August 16
    TEC is in and of itself...a stunning solvent.  Just add to your oil phase.

    Function of urea is very pH dependent.  I did not see where you listed pH?  .... And even form will have some bearing....ie: HydroVance works in a little different range than the others.

    Do you have a cool-down phase?  I add my bisabolol and Hydrovance at that time.

    ** When you see TEC as an ingredient in an ingredient....it is usually serving as a solvent/stabilizer for the ingredient in that situation.  There will likely not be enough to cover the whole formula.

    @Pharma
  • JuggsyJuggsy Member
    yes. I add everything in stages. didn't think to add instructions. assumed it was self explanatory, but looking again, I understand the confusion (my inability to copy and paste on laptop)… everything from germall down in cooldown. expect allantoin - which on my spreadsheet is first just when I copied and pasted it missed the last line, so I added it. 

    pH of originally of this (with only 5%) formula was 5.9 - currently at 14 weeks - it's last reading was 6.2 - which I thought was okay, it's cream. still in suitable range. It still stable. Looks the same. doesn't smell like urine 😂😂 so my brain started thinking. oh maybe I can increase it. 

    I read that before Somewhere I am sure it was you who mentioned using triethyl citrate (why did I write TET - I know it's a C 🤦🏼‍♀️ not even a typo - idiot I am - my bottle even says TEC) as a solvent. Maybe I will experiment with it on it's own. It is a hefty price I'm paying for 100g at the moment. 

    I have only really used it for antibacterial properties so far and I was thinking of experimenting with how it compares to DPG for extending life of EOs. 
     
    As for hydrovance, it didn't even cross my mind. I had a small sample (used it) but it was really expensive here until Trulux brought it it. So, I hadn't thought of using it again. I'll add it to my August cart. 
     
    Thank you very much for your assistance!! I do appreciate being pointed in the right direction. 



  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    In short, TEC isn't an acid but will hydrolyse to one in case of elevated pH. This, in a way, does 'buffer' a solution. You'll find the long version somewhere here on board.
    Besides that, 14 weeks and a pH drift of 0.3, that's not bad. More important than 'buffering' is a good pH to start with.
  • Hi Juggsy where are you based? I find Trulux the most expensive company I have used and you may find if you shop around for TEC for example (I think Graillotion has a good place in USA for that and I have since found a place in Thailand for myself (I am based in Australia) that TEC costs 10% of what it would at Trulux and that includes shipping. So worth shopping around. 
    Re the handcream maybe a barrier type cream would work better for your partner (depends why they are cracked?) and something with Anhydrous lanolin (if you arent opposed to such products).
  • JuggsyJuggsy Member
    @Pharma I do understand that and did read all the threads here. That was the whole reason I was interested as, per my understanding (feel free to correct me) when the pH goes above a certain point, it converts into citric acid and then brings the pH down again. I was a bit confused about dilution of it though. I assumed it had to be diluted to be added to buffer the pH. 

    @Squinny I am in Australia. Because I am only studying, I swear most places don't want a bar of me because I do not want 20kg plus for small business and certainly not 200kg+ - The Thailand place - what is their MOQ? I would love to know more details. Trulux is very expensive. 
    I'm allergic to lanolin - I'm terified of working with it for that reason. I can't test creams with it myself. I have got several verisons of that basic formula. One with a "vegan" lanolin alternative and one with small % of beeswax. I have been documenting the hand cream - hope to use it as my main assessment product. 
  • Hi Juggsy - Here is the link for MySkinRecipes: Cosmetics - MySkinRecipes.com - So prices are in Thai Baht and conversion is approx $0.041 at moment so for instance $100 BHT = $4.02 AUD. There is a minimum shipping/packing fee is around 1050 BHT for a 500 g parcel so around $42 - Anyway have a look at the site as they have so many ingredients that you cant buy here (unless they have Trulux) and for me it worked out so much cheaper for everything I bought (13 ingredients - the most I bought of an ingredient was 500 g of TEC  (Note they sometimes use trade names instead of the INCI in the search engine so TEC is called Lipidsoft (TM) Deo for instance) which cost 595 BHT plus shipping so basically about $50 for 500 g whereas Trulux price for 500 g is $223.50 AUD + shipping - so you can see if you have a few products you want to buy or try very reasonable.
     Also (I am based in Cairns QLD) it only took around 10 days from time I ordered to delivery and it usually takes that for most ingredients i buy from Sydney or Sth QLD. ) They use DHL as carrier. Once you place your order you dont pay straight away and can amend it and get new shipping quotes if you think too expensive. I also asked them once I got my quote if they could do better on shipping cost and the quote came back cheaper so worth asking. Once you advise them on email you are going ahead with the order they send you a link to pay on Paypal (that's the only way they accept payment for international shipping so you need to have Paypal Account which doesnt cost anything and you can link to your bank account, You can email in my inbox if you want o discuss more. I also buy lots of ingredients from New Directions (Based in Marrickville in Sydney) and they do smaller quantities of most products and if you are in Sydney I'm sure you could do pickup? Autsralian Wholesale Oils (Also in Sydney are great for Essential Oils and Carrier oils plus they also have basic Emulsifiers, Butters, Floral Waters etc). Also thsi place have some good products  Essential Oils Carrier Oils Cosmetic Ingredients Serums Creams Lotions – Escentials Of Australia 
    Hope this helps and feel free to email me in my inbox if you want to chat or know more. Cheers - Nice sunny day here and 25 here in Cairns at moment :)

  • JuggsyJuggsy Member
    edited August 18
    Haha, I use all of those suppliers except my skin recipes :D  I've got a few things in a cart there - I just never ended up finishing my order. It's good to know that they are okay to use. It was the paypal process that deterred me. I have had some bad experiences with PayPal in the past. time to look :wink:

    I had a great thing going with Aromatic Ingredients (AI) until they were aquisitioned/changed hands in June (they were cheapest for oils, had lubrizol products others didn't) @Squinny thank you for your detailed response. 
    Max Hancock has worked really hard over the past few years to increase the things sold at Escentials. Max is a bit of a legend, really nice dude. They are my favourite because for me it's local and comes within two days whenever I order. I don't mind paying a bit extra when it comes so quickly. NDA are okay but can be exxy for some things, but now that I can't use AI for my extacts and EOs, they seem to sell the cheapest APB products (some are cheaper at SEOC, you really need to check) :| And they are decent for packaging. 

    I agree about Trulux (and now they charge shipping for orders under 300 - boo!) I always use Gyceryl Stearate and P100S (GS+P100S) to show how crazy their prices are... Trulux around $70p/kg at NDA $30 p/kg and at NEssentials $25 p/kg. It's a ridiculous price for such a basic ingredient. 
    NEssentials used to be okay for clays, oils etc and around 2011, I think they were really quite cheap. I used to buy lots from them for salt products. I don't recommend them to anyone now except for GS+P100S.  
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