Did neutralized carbomer will be electrolyte resistant by adding fatty (acid or alcohol)?

FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
edited July 31 in General
 I remarked that a koalin scrub product contains as thickener  neutralized carbomer with low level of stearic acid supposed in the 1% line ,  the product has main ingredients water then kaolin and it contains sodium lauryl sulfate supposed that product is high electrolyte one so how carbomer resisted that?
  The viscosity of product is higher than the viscosity of ordinary hair gel?
  
 Any explanation from experts  @Bill_Toge @Pharma @Graillotion @Perry @Abdullah .. 

Comments

  • HAL49HAL49 Member
    Carbomers are a family of ingredients , so there are grades of carbomer tolerant to electrolytes and surfactants , even the ones that are not design to be tolerant can withstand some electrolytes and surfactats , it all depends on the concentrations

    fatty acids or alcohols can add viscosity by themselves but won't provide any stabilizing effect to cabomers , in fact fatty acids/alcohols would have a negative effect on texture when combined with carbopols , but again it all depend on concentration and grade of carbopol used
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited July 31
    @HAL49 yes you have right about there are a lot of types of carbomer but my question about not resistant electrolyte ones did fatty (alcohol/acid) make them more resistant?
     
     About adding stabilizing effect for sure fatty alcohol and acids give more stability for cream product and even about texture not always true that they have bad effect with carbomer, actually the kaolin cream have lovely texture and for sure stearic acid made the emulsion more stable. 
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited August 1
    Fatty alcohols aren't electrolytes and fatty acids only after neutralisation (i.e. soap). The 'saltiness' of a molecule depends on its charges (anion and cation) and its molecular weight. Amphiphilic molecules such as emulsifiers have a 'saltiness' of roughly 1/3 of what you would calculate based on that; 1 part sodium stearate corresponds to ~15 parts table salt = its salt effect and carbomer interaction are minor.
  • It'd be nice if you write the formula declaration for the product you mentioned. Anyway, it's different to have a carbomer in a hand gel (where the carbomer forms a hydrogel), and have it for instance in a shampoo (where it forms different structures with the surfactants). In the hand gel, you might see colapse of the carbomer upon addition of salt, while in the shampoo, you might even experience an increase in viscosity.
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    @Pharma I know that fatty (alcohol and acid) are not electrolyte my question is if we add them to neutralized carbomer will they give some resistance to carbomer versus electrolyte? 
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited August 1
    @ketchito have you an explanation why in shampoo, carbomer can increase the viscosity however in hand gel the opposite?



  • Fekher said:
    @HAL49 yes you have right about there are a lot of types of carbomer but my question about not resistant electrolyte ones did fatty (alcohol/acid) make them more resistant?
    I am using pre-neutralized Carbomer in my products. I don't think there's a relation between the resistance and the percentage of the fatty alcohols. Also I think the idea behind the use of the Carbomer is to reduce the percent of the fat phase consistency givers, because they are heavy and unpleasant in high percentages.
  • Fekher said:
    @ketchito have you an explanation why in shampoo, carbomer can increase the viscosity however in hand gel the opposite?



    @Fekher In a shampoo, carbomer might not be dominant regarding viscosity, but some other molecules like surfactants and salt are. The good thing is that due to carbomer's interaction with surfactants, it doesn't collapse in the presence of salt.
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    Fekher said:
    @ketchito have you an explanation why in shampoo, carbomer can increase the viscosity however in hand gel the opposite?




    Now I'm curious, is this product possibly made in Amman? How can they use نشاط إعادة توليد الخلايا on the label.


  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    edited August 5
    @Pattsi hhh where are you from? I guess you are not Arabic  because they wrote يرفع من نشاط إعادة توليد الخلايا  wich is soo far from you understood and the product is made in PCR (China)
    @ketchito thanks get it. 
  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    I'd like to add here that once you pass a certain threshold with kaolin concentration (~15%) it takes on rheology attributes that overcome all other contributors. Up to that point I've found that most grades work in synergy with carbomer - wierd but true - in spite of those divalent earth metals in kaolin it does not dissolve or dissociate....until it does. 
  • FekherFekher Member, Professional Chemist
    Nice add @chemicalmatt ;
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    @Fekher - I'm not Arabic, only know basic bits and bobs of Arabic.
    I think I saw it in Jeddah, made in Jordan but the jar was green.
    If it's from China, there's a high chance that LOI is inaccurately listed.  
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