Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Please help formula separates

  • Please help formula separates

    Posted by Peta1 on July 6, 2022 at 11:00 pm

    Hi, so I made a simple leave in conditioner but then after a few weeks water started separate from it. I wanted it to be a light leave-in conditioner so i used 0.05% of the emulsifiying blend (Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate) even though the usage rate is 2%-8% Could this be the only reason it separated. I would love some help I am trying to learn to be better at this.
    Makes 8oz
    Phase1
    Distilled Water 6.86oz
    Glycerin-0.3oz
    BTMS-50-  0.07oz
    Phase 2
    Castor Oil- 0.2oz
    Emulsifying Blend- 0.05oz
    Sorbic Acid- 0.05oz
    Mango Butter- 0.31oz
    Phase 3
    Vitamin E -0.05oz
    D-Panthenol- 0.1oz
    Fragrance- 0.01oz

    Peta1 replied 1 year, 8 months ago 6 Members · 20 Replies
  • 20 Replies
  • graillotion

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 2:23 am

    Would you consider translating this into formulating language?  More people will look at it then.

    That would be…grams…and percentages.

    Aloha.

  • Peta1

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 5:12 am

    ok i will. Thank you

  • Peta1

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 5:55 am

    Phase1
    Distilled Water 85.75%
    Glycerin- 3.75%
    BTMS-50-  0.875%
    Phase 2
    Castor Oil- 2.5%
    Emulsifying Blend- 0.625%
    Sorbic Acid- 0.625%
    Mango Butter- 3.875%
    Phase 3
    Vitamin E -0.625%
    D-Panthenol- 0.125%
    Fragrance- 1.25%

  • abdullah

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 8:37 am

    BTMS is cationic & SSL is anionic. Not compatible. 

    Remove SSL & increase BTMS or remove BTMS, increase preservative blend and add a polymer for stability.

  • Peta1

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 12:10 pm

    @Abdullah thank you so much! are there any polymer you suggest? 

  • pharma

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 1:04 pm

    What is the INCI of Emulsifying Blend? Sounds like it could be anything.

  • Peta1

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 1:06 pm

    @Pharma I put it in the first section of the comment. It’s a blend of Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate) 

  • abdullah

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 2:17 pm

    Start from some xanthan gum.

  • pharma

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 2:24 pm
    Ah… okay… but you mention there 0.05% and in the LOI 0.625%???
    Anyway, that blend is meant to create lamellar structures, not micellar ones. Hence, you can’t just downscale it proportionally when using less oil phase. You have to use a certain quantity to get a stable structure. I’m also not convinced that this blend is suitable for such a small oil phase.
    As mentioned by @Abdullah, BTMS 50 is cationic (and would also create lamellar structures) whilst SSL can be anionic (we don’t know the pH or your formulation) and hence, at the wrong proportion the two make an emulsion highly unstable. At the right one, the ‘incompatibility’ can actually increase stability… remains to be tested (especially because you don’t know how much of the two emulsifiers are actually in the two blends). Still, if you want to combine BTMS 50 with a second emulsifying wax, go for a nonionic one. Again, the overall % is low and instead of increasing it, me personally, would go with a different type of emulsifier for such a small oil phase.
  • Peta1

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 2:31 pm

    @Pharma ok thanks so much. I will switch the emulsifier. I am definitely learning about cationic and anionic now.  

  • abdullah

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 4:19 pm

    @Pharma At the right one, the ‘incompatibility’ can actually increase stability… 
    Can you explain this interaction a bit more or where can i study about interactions like this. 

    This is interesting for me because i have seen some Serave products and phique conditioner that uses anionic & cationic surfactant. I knew they are doing something good but don’t know what are they doing and why are they doing so.

  • pharma

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 7:55 pm
    @Abdullah I found some publications on PubMed and ScienceDirect. I didn’t safe them… sorry!
  • evchem2

    Member
    July 7, 2022 at 8:41 pm

    Does that incompatibility have anything to do with coacervate formation or is that really just for deposition benefits?

  • ketchito

    Member
    July 8, 2022 at 12:22 am

    Abdullah said:

    @Pharma At the right one, the ‘incompatibility’ can actually increase stability… 
    Can you explain this interaction a bit more or where can i study about interactions like this. 

    This is interesting for me because i have seen some Serave products and phique conditioner that uses anionic & cationic surfactant. I knew they are doing something good but don’t know what are they doing and why are they doing so.

    @Abdullah You can start here: http://www.scientificspectator.com/documents/Olenick%20Compilation/Ch%2015%20Cationic%20Anionic%201.pdf

    There are also few books that talk about the benefits from these type of antagonistic interactions.

  • abdullah

    Member
    July 8, 2022 at 3:39 am

    @Pharma no problem. What should i search for in Google to get results about these? 

    @ketchito thanks 

  • abdullah

    Member
    July 8, 2022 at 4:10 am

    @ketchito I can’t open or download the file in Link. Can you resend it. 

  • pharma

    Member
    July 8, 2022 at 5:55 am

    Abdullah said:

    @Pharma no problem. What should i search for in Google to get results about these?

    Why don’t you want to search in PubMed or ScienceDirect? Anyway, maybe try THIS.

  • abdullah

    Member
    July 8, 2022 at 6:19 am

    Pharma said:

    Abdullah said:

    @Pharma no problem. What should i search for in Google to get results about these?

    Why don’t you want to search in PubMed or ScienceDirect? Anyway, maybe try THIS.

    I will but i don’t know what should i search for. What should i write in search box? 

    When i searched anionic cationic i only got the result of SLS, SLES+ some amphoteric surfactants for cleansing product.

  • Peta1

    Member
    July 19, 2022 at 7:21 pm

    @Pharma Hi, you mentioned my oil phase is low. Is there a specific ratio for the oil phase? I switched the emulsifier to cetearyl alcohol by it self and I used 0.08 and I also used 0.08 BTMS-50 but a think i might see a small speck of water separation.

  • Peta1

    Member
    July 19, 2022 at 8:52 pm

    I apologize i had to edit the above @Pharma  Hi, you mentioned my oil phase is low. Is there a specific ratio for the oil phase? I switched the emulsifier to cetearyl alcohol by it self and I used 1% and I also used 1% BTMS-50 but a think i might see a small speck of water separation.

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