Loosing viscosity after sometimes

 Hi friends.i have issue with making shampoo formulation.
> Question about loosing the viscosity.
>
> My formulation
> Sles 21%
> Sodium chloride 2%
> Egds 1.5%
> Polyqauternium 7. 2%
> Capb30% 5%
> Titanium dioxide 0.3%
> Sodium benzoate 1.2%
> Fragrance qs
> Salt 2to3 %
> Water 65%
> My preparition.firs sles with sodium chloride and take some water stir for
> 10 minutes then add egds and heat until boiling and add pq 7 and stir and
> the end add sodium benzoate after 24 hours add capb30% and add fragrance at
> the end for viscosity add more sodium chloride.but sometimes after 2 or 5
> months the shampoo will lose the viscosity same like water and thin.what is
> the cause?

Comments

  • ketchitoketchito Member
    @saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB? 
  • ketchito said:
    @saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB? 
    Yah . thanks for reply. Yes i add at the end capb and salt . And about after 24 hours because I have making shampoo in hot process.after 24 hours the batch is normal temperature.then i add capb and salt.
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    edited June 20
    A few questions on your formula. 

    So you're adding salt (Sodium chloride) twice? And you end up sometimes at 5%? ..
    Do not add the salt at the beginning and only use it at the end. You may "over-salt" it and that is why you lose viscosity. First check and adjust final pH though.

    What is your final pH? 

    Your ONLY preservative is sodium benzoate? At 1.2%??!!?
  • Thanks sir. The first salt for dissolve the SLES and i arrange ph 6 
    About the preservative isn't it enough or add to another preservative. I also have more preservatives like dm dm hydantoin.methylparaben . probablyparaben and formaldehyde.i also have different weathers season when we made shampoo in 20 temperature or less then and when the time is  going and the temperature get to from 34 to 40 temperature shampoo will loose viscosity.what about the gums or carbomers?
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    You said your viscosity is lost after several months. It viscosity ok at first? 

    If yes, heat some product that has enough viscosity slowly to evaporate some water and see if viscosity increase or decrease.

    If viscosity decreased it means you have too much salt as Paprik said and also water is evaporating from your final package.
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    I don't think you need salt to get SLES dissolved? At least I have never heard of it.

    The final pH is 6? Ok, you are facing another possible problem - microbial contamination. Even though you are using probably 400% of recommended input of Sodium Benzoate, it won't work as it needs low pH (<5). It is also known to be quite irritating (even at 0.3%). You need to add some Bactericidal, such as DMDM Hydantoin. 
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Paprik said:
    I don't think you need salt to get SLES dissolved? At least I have never heard of it.

    The final pH is 6? Ok, you are facing another possible problem - microbial contamination. Even though you are using probably 400% of recommended input of Sodium Benzoate, it won't work as it needs low pH (<5). It is also known to be quite irritating (even at 0.3%). You need to add some Bactericidal, such as DMDM Hydantoin. 
    Mixing high amount of salt reduces the viscosity of SLES paste so it will become easier yo work with.
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    But, is it really necessary? If you put the paste into water and maybe heat it a little, doesn't it turn into thin solution quickly? 
    (Just guessing, I've never worked with it). For me you are the SLS and SLES expert :D 
  • Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?
  • Mr paprik if i dissolve sles without salt it makes alots bubbles and without salt couldn't full dissolve sles .and DMDM hydantoin 0.3% and sodium benzoate is 0.3% is okay?
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    @saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I'd make a salt curve of your systems to know if you're oversalting it or not.
  • Great sounds. Could i use carbopol for viscosity and thickening. Sometimes i use  mica and titanium dioxide in others shampoo for suspending ?
  • ketchito said:
    @saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I'd make a salt curve of your systems to know if you're oversalting it or not.
    @ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too😄
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Paprik said:
    But, is it really necessary? If you put the paste into water and maybe heat it a little, doesn't it turn into thin solution quickly? 
    (Just guessing, I've never worked with it). For me you are the SLS and SLES expert :D 
    No it is not necessary. 
    If you don't use high shear or heat, this is one another option to make the process easier. It works better in products that need more NACL and less SLES. 
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?
    You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

    Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 
  • That is right. But a question mr Abdullah some gums and carbomer incompatible with electrolytes like salt for me best option to uses suspending agents because sometimes i uses mica and titanium dioxide
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Gums like xanthan, guar or HPMC are very compatible with NACL.
  • Abdullah said:
    Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?
    You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

    Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 
    @Abdullah so how much of salt for desired viscosity can measured by experiment and experiment only? Am I right ?
  • Abdullah said:
    Gums like xanthan, guar or HPMC are very compatible with NACL.
    Great . Xanthine gum concentration 0.5 or 1% enough and sodium benzoate 1.2% as preservative right or increase ?
  • evchem2evchem2 Member
    Don't increase the sodium benzoate any more you are already well over the recommended use level. If your pH is 6 it is not actively preserving anyway. Swap our for one of your other listed preservatives (parabens? Not sure how well they perform in surfactant systems) and keep to use levels that are realistic for the product (<0.1%). More is not always better
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Abdullah said:
    Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?
    You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

    Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 
    @Abdullah so how much of salt for desired viscosity can measured by experiment and experiment only? Am I right ?
    I mean do like this 
    Make the shampoo, it will be water thin 

    Add 0.2% NACL, mix and see the viscosity

    Then add 0.2% more, mix and see the viscosity. 

    Do like this until you reach the viscosity you want. 

    Then note that. 
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Abdullah said:
    Gums like xanthan, guar or HPMC are very compatible with NACL.
    Great . Xanthine gum concentration 0.5 or 1% enough and sodium benzoate 1.2% as preservative right or increase ?
    What equipments do you have for mixing? 

    Xanthan gum needs high shear mixing.

    For preservative i only recommend formaldehyde or a releaser or CMI MI in shampoo with some EDTA and small amount ≤0.5% sodium benzoate as helper. 
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    ketchito said:
    @saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I'd make a salt curve of your systems to know if you're oversalting it or not.
    @ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too😄
    Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.
  • Thanks alots. Paprik and Abdullah. And More i will try it .
  • ketchito said:
    ketchito said:
    @saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I'd make a salt curve of your systems to know if you're oversalting it or not.
    @ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too😄
    Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.
    @ketchito thanks a lot. 
  • Abdullah said:
    Abdullah said:
    Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?
    You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL. 

    Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve. 
    @Abdullah so how much of salt for desired viscosity can measured by experiment and experiment only? Am I right ?
    I mean do like this 
    Make the shampoo, it will be water thin 

    Add 0.2% NACL, mix and see the viscosity

    Then add 0.2% more, mix and see the viscosity. 

    Do like this until you reach the viscosity you want. 

    Then note that. 
    @Abdullah thanks a lot.
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