Function & type of non-ionic emulsifier to add with cationic emulsion or conditioner

About a month ago i made lotion with 2% BTMS 25, 4% petroleum & 0.05 NACL. it is stable in high temperature, low temperature and 3 freeze Thaw cycle. 

Yet it is suggested to add  a non-ionic emulsifier in conditioner that has more cationic surfactant, more fatty alcohol & lower oil phase to emulsify.

My question is:
1. what is the need for a non-ionic emulsifier in cationic conditioner?
2. Should that non-ionic emulsifier be low HLB like GMS or high HLB like polyglyceryl-4 laurate for example and why? 

Comments

  • PaprikPaprik Member
    1. Non-ionic helps with building viscosity and mildness to the product. Customers usually like thick product, they think it is a sign of well performing product. 
    2. Definitely high HLB, it is for better wash off.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Paprik said:
    1. Non-ionic helps with building viscosity and mildness to the product. Customers usually like thick product, they think it is a sign of well performing product. 
    2. Definitely high HLB, it is for better wash off.
    Thanks. That is good because i thought there is non-ionic surfactant is needed for stability purpose. 
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    Non ionic helps stabilize ionic emulsions. Because of ionic charge, ionic emulsifiers cannot grow big micelles, and non ionic surfactants help reduce repulsion between charged head groups.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited June 21
    ketchito said:
    Non ionic helps stabilize ionic emulsions. Because of ionic charge, ionic emulsifiers cannot grow big micelles, and non ionic surfactants help reduce repulsion between charged head groups.
    1. Doesn't more repulsion between charged head groups mean more stability?

    2. Do big micceles mean more stability?

    3. With Behentrimonium chloride hair conditioner for example, if we use fatty alcohol or glyceryl stearate, don't they function as non-ionic surfactant and stabilize it?

    4. In conditioner, will adding some alkyl Glucoside or CAPB increase stability? 
    If not, why not?
    They are non-ionic, they increase micceles size & they reduce repulsion too.
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    1. Quite the contrary. Repulsion between ionic head groups doesn't let micelles grow and arrange properly (packing). It's like Tetrix, you want to build a structure tightly packed and with no holes, but ionic head groups will leave holes due to repulsion.

    2. Simply put, yes (giant micelles have a very ordered arrangement)

    3. Fatty alcohols are not surfactants while glyceryl stearate is (different molecular structure, different interfacial activity, different way of interacting with surfactants)

    4. No in the case of CAPB (it's a c12-14, too short a chain). In the case of glucoside, it should have a long alkyl chain. Just because the don't have a net charge, doesn't mean they'll behave the same.
  • edited June 21
    ketchito said:
    1. Quite the contrary. Repulsion between ionic head groups doesn't let micelles grow and arrange properly (packing). It's like Tetrix, you want to build a structure tightly packed and with no holes, but ionic head groups will leave holes due to repulsion.

    2. Simply put, yes (giant micelles have a very ordered arrangement)

    3. Fatty alcohols are not surfactants while glyceryl stearate is (different molecular structure, different interfacial activity, different way of interacting with surfactants)

    4. No in the case of CAPB (it's a c12-14, too short a chain). In the case of glucoside, it should have a long alkyl chain. Just because the don't have a net charge, doesn't mean they'll behave the same
    @ketchito when you explain interestingly then people like me get the better understanding all these chemistry. I read reread your comments and erase many doubts.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited June 21
    For glucoside i was talking about coco or lauryl glucoside.
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    Abdullah said:
    For glucoside i was talking about coco or lauryl glucoside.
    Think more about cetyl or cetearyl glucoside for emulsifying. Lauryl and coco glucosides behave more like detergents.
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    ketchito said:
    1. Quite the contrary. Repulsion between ionic head groups doesn't let micelles grow and arrange properly (packing). It's like Tetrix, you want to build a structure tightly packed and with no holes, but ionic head groups will leave holes due to repulsion.

    2. Simply put, yes (giant micelles have a very ordered arrangement)

    3. Fatty alcohols are not surfactants while glyceryl stearate is (different molecular structure, different interfacial activity, different way of interacting with surfactants)

    4. No in the case of CAPB (it's a c12-14, too short a chain). In the case of glucoside, it should have a long alkyl chain. Just because the don't have a net charge, doesn't mean they'll behave the same
    @ketchito when you explain interestingly then people like me get the better understanding all these chemistry. I read reread your comments and erase many doubts.
    @drjayseesunish Thank you for your kind words, it's my pleasure.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    ketchito said:
    Abdullah said:
    For glucoside i was talking about coco or lauryl glucoside.
    Think more about cetyl or cetearyl glucoside for emulsifying. Lauryl and coco glucosides behave more like detergents.
    Thanks
  • Paprik said:
    1. Non-ionic helps with building viscosity and mildness to the product. Customers usually like thick product, they think it is a sign of well performing product. 
    2. Definitely high HLB, it is for better wash off.
    @Paprik Helloo!! Can you help please with a suggestion of a high HLB non-ionic emulsifier that can be used in hair conditioner? Thanks!
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    @Anna_Maria

    Hello, yeah sure, I like to use Cetearyl Alcohol (it is fatty acid), Cetyl alcohol, you can use maybe even blend like Polawax GP 200 ... 

    But I usually stick with Cetearyl Alcohol as it works and it's great and not expensive :) 
  • Paprik said:
    @Anna_Maria

    Hello, yeah sure, I like to use Cetearyl Alcohol (it is fatty acid), Cetyl alcohol, you can use maybe even blend like Polawax GP 200 ... 

    But I usually stick with Cetearyl Alcohol as it works and it's great and not expensive :) 
    Cool! thank you!! :)
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