BTMS 25 emulsion became very thick during mixing. Why and how to avoid it?

I made this sample 

Petrolatum 4%
Glycerin 4%
GMS 1%
BTMS 25  2%
0.1% tetrasodium EDTA
0.3% citric acid to pH 4
Water 

A) water phase was heated above 70 °c and oil phase was heated until melted ( didn't check the temperature of oil phase as it was too small amount.
I was using 1kw stick blender to homogenize this 400g sample batches

When i added oil phase to water phase, in less than 10 seconds it became so thick that my mixer wasnt able to mix it any more. 


B) Then i made another sample. This time 1%  BTMS and 0.5% GMS . upon mixing the phases it again became so thick that my mixer wasnt able to mix it. 

C) then i made another batch, this time 2% BTMS 25 was added to water phase. Upon mix5i two phase it again became so thick that it was not mixable. 
To this thick batch i then added 6 drops( ~0.02%) of apple fragrance oil and mixed it with spoon, it became soft and thin so i was able to properly homogenized it, added preservative and it is stable since yesterday. It is currently a medium viscosity lotion. 

My questions are
1. Was there any problem with my mixing technique that it because thick before homogenization or BTMS need any specific mixing technique?

2. is it normal for BTMS to make such a thick product even at 1% BTMS 25+0.5% GMS emulsifier?

3. Why it became so thick before homogenization and when it was hot so i couldn't homogenize it?

4. Any suggestions on how to work with BTMS 25? 

i know i can find a lot of formulas on internet with preparation methods but in my experience those formulas don't work, even those from reputable big companies. So that is not and option for me to learn it.



Comments

  • SylSyl Member
    1-Your mixing seems fine
    2-no
    5-Maybe something is wrong with your ingredient.

    Below is a. conditioner formula from Making Cosmetic,

    Phase A 
     Distilled Water (diluent) 79.6 % 
     Guar Gum (thickener/conditioner) 0.5 % 
     Glycerin (humectant) 2 %
    Propylene Glycol (humectant) 2 %
    Phase B
    Cetyl Alcohol (thickener/softener) 3 %
    BTMS 25 (conditioning emulsifier blend) 4 % 
     PEG-150 Distearate (thickener/emulsifier) 1 % 
     Meadowfoam Seed Oil (emollient) 3 % 
     Olive Oil (emollient) 1 % 
     Cyclo-Dimethicone (emollient) 1 % 
     Phase C Vitamin E Acetate (active ingredient) 0.5 % 
     Provitamin B5 (active ingredient) 1 % 
     Potassium Sorbate (preservative) 0.3 % 
     Paraben-DU (preservative) 0.5 %
    Fragrance 0.5 %
    Citric Acid (acidulant) 0.1 % 
     Method Dissolve the guar gum in the distilled water by mixing well. Then add other ingredients of phase A in order. Heat phase A to 150F/60C. Heat phase B to the same temperature. Add phase B to phase A and stir well. Remove beakers from the heat. When cool add phase C in order and stir again. Adjust the ph value to 4 to 5.5 with citric acid. Properties Rich hair conditioner with precious emollients, the conditioning ingredient is the behentrimonium who is combined with an emulsifier, plus the cationic guar gum. Vitamin E acetate acts as an antioxidant on the hair.  
  • Cafe33Cafe33 Member
    edited April 18
    BTMS-25 is one of the main ingredients I use and yes its normal to be too thick to mix using typical mixing especially when combined with GMS. It will also achieve its close to final viscosity fairly quickly. I use an Anchor style paddle for mixing. As an emulsifier, I found it to be immensely stable, I have never had a sample separate even with poor mixing technique. 
  • @Syl thanks

    @Cafe33 thanks. That may be the case.

    Some more questions as you are experienced.

    1. By typical mixing, do you mean homogenizer or high shear mixer? 

    2. What is the speed of your Anchor paddle?

    3. Do you also homogenize it or just Anchor paddle mixing is enough?

    Is it so just with BTMS 25 or BTMS 50 and BEHENTRIMONIUM CHLORIDE too?


    I am currently using SPDMA but want to change it to something with behenyl in it.




  • CamelCamel Member
    @Abdullah - I made 3% BTMS-25 emulsion with 3% C10-18 Triglycerides (oil-gelling/stabilizer), 3% esters, 2% oils and 1% OliWax. All in one water phase. It was not too thick to mix, medium-viscosity lotion. 

    I used low-shear, anchor paddle mixer at low-medium speed only. It's stable for 2 months now. 

    BTMS-50 should make thinner emulsion because it has less thickener in it, I think. 
  • @Camel @Cafe33 thanks for sharing

    I made 2 batches today

    1. 2% BTMS and removed GMS. Same problem

    2. 2% BTMS but after adding oil phase to water, i didn't use stick blender. Instead i mixed it with spoon by hand. This time it two phases were not mixing no matter how much or how fast or slow i mix it and the oil phase came on top and trying to combine with each other. Then I homogenized it and it became thick again. 

    Tomorrow i will make sample with liquid oil to see if petrolatum is the problem but i hop it is not because it is a much for my lotions. 
  • Camel said:
    @Abdullah - I made 3% BTMS-25 emulsion with 3% C10-18 Triglycerides (oil-gelling/stabilizer), 3% esters, 2% oils and 1% OliWax. All in one water phase. It was not too thick to mix, medium-viscosity lotion. 

    I used low-shear, anchor paddle mixer at low-medium speed only. It's stable for 2 months now. 

    BTMS-50 should make thinner emulsion because it has less thickener in it, I think. 
    Do you mean you added oil and water phase together when cold and heated then and mixed together? 
  • CamelCamel Member
    edited April 19
    Abdullah said:
    Do you mean you added oil and water phase together when cold and heated then and mixed together? 
    Yes. 

    Abdullah said:
    Tomorrow i will make sample with liquid oil to see if petrolatum is the problem but i hop it is not because it is a much for my lotions. 
    Good idea! I also suspected the petrolatum could be contributing to the viscosity, but at only 4% I feel like it shouldn't be a problem. Still, it is worth it to try with liquid oil and see what happens. 
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