Keratine - how do you produce it?

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Comments

  • ZahraZahra Member
    Zahra said:

    Hello, thank you all
    I told the problem and the amount of materials. thank you for your help
    Thanks
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Honestly you have a ridiculous number of ingredients. The key to creating a good formula is to keep it simple. Do not add more ingredients than you need.

    why add 5 types of silicone when 1 would work fine?
    why add two acids when 1 works fine?
    why add two different types of protein when one works?

    You have 24 ingredients. Cut it down to 10 ingredients.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Zahra said:
    Honestly you have a ridiculous number of ingredients. The key to creating a good formula is to keep it simple. Do not add more ingredients than you need.

    why add 5 types of silicone when 1 would work fine?
    why add two acids when 1 works fine?
    why add two different types of protein when one works?

    You have 24 ingredients. Cut it down to 10 ingredients.
    Yes, I used one type of acid, I used a mixture of two types to check the result
    A good percentage of good ingredients are needed to achieve a good formula.
    Of course, these materials work well
    But I went up and down the percentages together and the result was the same and I did not get a better answer.

  • ZahraZahra Member
    Hello Mr. Perry, thank you
    I do not have much money to register on this site.
    I read cosmetic books.
    I know the formulas.
    I know what each substance has.
    I have a problem with these two issues.
    Of course, I know substances that neutralize static electricity, which are cationic surfactants, but I do not know if I need anionic and amphoteric surfactants to neutralize them.
    I also know their allowable percentage.
    I just have a problem this way.
    I had trouble neutralizing static electricity in my hair.
    I also have a problem with softness
    I want my hair to be soft and fat-free so that my hair does not have too much fat.
  • Measure your ingredients by weight percentage only. This way you know how much you should add if you change the batch size. Also when write your formula only as percentage. 

    Don't say 2 drop or cc or gram. We cant know what percentage of your formula is this 2 drop or cc. 

    Tell us only the percentage so we can know how much you have added and can suggest you increase or decrease it. 

    For static charge, you can use cationic guar in shampoo or a cationic surfactant like stearamidopropyl dimethyl amine in conditioner. 


  • ZahraZahra Member
    Abdullah said:
    Measure your ingredients by weight percentage only. This way you know how much you should add if you change the batch size. Also when write your formula only as percentage. 

    Don't say 2 drop or cc or gram. We cant know what percentage of your formula is this 2 drop or cc. 

    Tell us only the percentage so we can know how much you have added and can suggest you increase or decrease it. 

    For static charge, you can use cationic guar in shampoo or a cationic surfactant like stearamidopropyl dimethyl amine in conditioner. 


    Hi thanks
    Sorry I did not write the percentages
    Yes, I understand you are right
    In terms of percentage of acid or volume N, I wanted to fix it
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Of course from
    Cetermonium chloride
    And
    I used polyquaternium
  • ZahraZahra Member
    I have to use materials that do not change up to three stages after straightening the hair with an iron, and after washing with shampoo, free sulfate does not disappear and causes the hair to straighten.
    I want my hair to be soft, but I should not use too much silicone and oil because the hair fat rises.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    I do not know if the need for cationic surfactant is up to what percentage to assume 100 grams of sample
    Because the allowable limits of cationic surfactants are different
    I mean, what percentage is used?
    Because with every percentage I made, it formed stickiness, like cetermonium cholride
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    With current Supply Chain issues and Raw Material price increases and shortages, I think you will have an uphill battle ever making this product affordably. For example, you used 4 silicones. Silicones are in short supply and the prices have jumped. I spent several hours last week looking for silicones and the client was buying Commercial quantities.

    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Hi thanks
    Yes, I know, of course, the price of silicon has risen to some extent, as well as other materials
    If I do not use these materials, they will not respond much
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Hello, thank you for all your experiences
    Please introduce me to surfactants that have excellent conditioning and neutralize static electricity in the hair.
    On the other hand, they are effective against washing with free sulfate shampoo and hair iron and do not disappear.
    Of course, I know that large molecular surfactants are more effective.
    I know a number of them and have worked with them.
    But I did not get a good answer !?
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Zahra - Since you are new to formulating you seem to have a common fundamental misunderstanding of how to put together a formula.

    If you begin the process from a starting formula that has been proven to work, then you simply need to adjust the levels of the ingredients in the formula or maybe add an ingredient to get some slightly improved effects.

    But you seem to be starting from a completely, unproven formula.

    If you are starting with just raw materials you need to begin with a simple formula.  The simplest really.  Make a formula with...

    WATER
    POLYQUATERNIUM 6
    Preservative

    Then test that formula and see whether it works or not. 

    If it doesn't work & needs improvement is some area, simply add ONE more ingredient.  Continue to do this until you get a formula that works as desired.

    You should not start with 24 ingredients because you have no idea what each one is contributing to the effect of the final formula.

    But if you continue to wish to use every ingredient, then you'll need to do a knockout experiment to determine the effect of each ingredient. 

  • ZahraZahra Member
    edited March 21
    Perry said:
    @Zahra - Since you are new to formulating you seem to have a common fundamental misunderstanding of how to put together a formula.... 

    Hi thanks
    Yes, I did some basic testing with some materials like your recommendation and added other materials to improve the work.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    edited March 21
    Thanks for suggesting the knockout method
      I hope to achieve a good result
    I am very happy to meet capable people in this forum.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    edited March 21
    Of course in several series of experiments
    I deleted a few items
    Or alternative.
    To reach a conclusion
    I work on the subject from 8 am to 5 pm
    Of course, I also research the subject at home.
    And I think well
  • What Perry said was if you start with only one ingredient+water+preservative, you know exactly what effect it has in your formula. Then add one another ingredient and you will know what effect this new ingredient has. And so on 

    In several experiments you have removed or changed some ingredients but you don't know what effects did they have and what effect do the remaining ingredients have.
    You are still as confused as you were before doing all these. So you learned nothing from those experiments.

    I also advise you start from one ingredient with preservative, note the results and then move on. 
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Abdullah said:
    What Perry said was if you start with only one ingredient+water+preservative, you know exactly what effect it has in your formula. Then add one another ingredient and you will know what effect this new ingredient has. And so on 

    In several experiments you have removed or changed some ingredients but you don't know what effects did they have and what effect do the remaining ingredients have.
    You are still as confused as you were before doing all these. So you learned nothing from those experiments.

    I also advise you start from one ingredient with preservative, note the results and then move on. 
    Hi thanks
    Yes thank you
    I know the effect of the substances, but I thought more about the chemical reaction and their effect on hair straightening.
    Some substances have keratin repairing properties, some substances have emollient properties and some have emulsifying properties.
    Yes, as Mr. Perry said, I have tested it before.
    And I reduced or removed some of the materials or replaced them.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Now I have to try again to get a better result.
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Paprik said:
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
    Hello
    I do not intend to make fun of you
    I asked a question that had caused problems in my work
    Because a few months and after I did not get results, I worked on this issue and then
    I worked on another topic
    I went all this way with a few experiments, but because I did not get results, I got tired
    Please do not judge anyone for no reason.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    edited March 21
    Zahra said:

    At the university where I studied, the professor did not teach much to the student, but it is the student who must try and learn science.
    I do not need your misjudgment
  • There is two types of knowing the effect effect of each ingredient. 

    1. You read on internet, on product descriptions or hear from someone that this ingredient has these functions and these benefits.

    2. You actually experience it or someone who has experienced it tells you and then you know it. 

    Your knowledge it from first type and that is mostly not true. 

    For example: you  used 2 drops of glycolic acid & 3 drops of glyoxylic acid to adjust pH. In your mind you think you are getting all those benefits of these two ingredients that you have seen on internet. Now make a batch and use only one acid and see if there is any difference. If no difference then you for real know that it had no benefits and was just adjusting pH.
    The same for all other ingredients that you used. 
  • Paprik said:
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
    She thought the information about functions and benefits of an ingredient she finds on internet is all she needs to know. 
    I was ike this at first too. 



  • ZahraZahra Member
    Abdullah said:
    Paprik said:
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
    She thought the information about functions and benefits of an ingredient she finds on internet is all she needs to know. 
    I was ike this at first too. 



    I think it is better to continue mixing surfactants and some emollients
        It may work better than before.
    And I will go according to your opinions.
    As Mr. Perry said you are out of the knockout method
    And the combination of several substances
    I used to test, I used to go for these methods, but because I got tired and had to synthesize another product, it was abandoned.
  • Zahra said:
    Abdullah said:
    Paprik said:
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
    She thought the information about functions and benefits of an ingredient she finds on internet is all she needs to know. 
    I was ike this at first too. 



    I think it is better to continue mixing surfactants and some emollients
        It may work better than before.
    And I will go according to your opinions.
    As Mr. Perry said you are out of the knockout method
    And the combination of several substances
    I used to test, I used to go for these methods, but because I got tired and had to synthesize another product, it was abandoned.
    knockout method is more useful when you have a fully functional formula that you totally like and now you do knockout for a specific purpose for example reducing the cost. 
    Example: you have a fully functional conditioner that one of the ingredients is keratin. You do knockout keratin and see how your formula works without it. If there was no difference then you don't use keratin anymore and reduce your product cost. 

    If you don't have a fully functional formula and you also don't know what each ingredient is doing in the formula, i would advise as Perry said first make 1 ingredient with water and preservative and see, then add ane more and see and so on instead of adding 20 ingredients and making a bad product, then making 20 knockout formulas and still make bad products and at the end be confused that what was the purpose, benefit and result  of all these experiments. 

    Now don't say i know what each ingredient is doing in my formula πŸ˜‰
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Abdullah said:
    Zahra said:
    Abdullah said:
    Paprik said:
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
    She thought the information about functions and benefits of an ingredient she finds on internet is all she needs to know. 
    I was ike this at first too. 



    I think it is better to continue mixing surfactants and some emollients
        It may work better than before.
    And I will go according to your opinions.
    As Mr. Perry said you are out of the knockout method
    And the combination of several substances
    I used to test, I used to go for these methods, but because I got tired and had to synthesize another product, it was abandoned.
    knockout method is more useful when you have a fully functional formula that you totally like and now you do knockout for a specific purpose for example reducing the cost. 
    Example: you have a fully functional conditioner that one of the ingredients is keratin. You do knockout keratin and see how your formula works without it. If there was no difference then you don't use keratin anymore and reduce your product cost. 

    If you don't have a fully functional formula and you also don't know what each ingredient is doing in the formula, i would advise as Perry said first make 1 ingredient with water and preservative and see, then add ane more and see and so on instead of adding 20 ingredients and making a bad product, then making 20 knockout formulas and still make bad products and at the end be confused that what was the purpose, benefit and result  of all these experiments. 

    Now don't say i know what each ingredient is doing in my formula πŸ˜‰
    Grateful
    I told you before that I work for a company, not for myself
    So I have to find a formula that gives me the best result
    I try to combine some ingredients and see their effect on the hair.
    I was successful in making products
         like the:
          Mask after bath
    hair conditioner

    So I have to work hard, I will not be disappointed.،☺️
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Abdullah said:
    Zahra said:
    Abdullah said:
    Paprik said:
    It is surprising how Zahra "knows" everything,. agrees on everything and has done everything you guys tell her before, but she (I assume it is her) still has things to say and having issues.

    If you read all the books, have degree in chemistry, have done countless experiments, know everything about the ingredients,  ... what seems to be the issue? I'm re-reading everything and I still do not get your point. 

    I don't mean to be rude, but this is second topic (I think) from her and it looks just ridiculous. Like she is making fun of you guys. 
    She thought the information about functions and benefits of an ingredient she finds on internet is all she needs to know. 
    I was ike this at first too. 



    I think it is better to continue mixing surfactants and some emollients
        It may work better than before.
    And I will go according to your opinions.
    As Mr. Perry said you are out of the knockout method
    And the combination of several substances
    I used to test, I used to go for these methods, but because I got tired and had to synthesize another product, it was abandoned.
    knockout method is more useful when you have a fully functional formula that you totally like and now you do knockout for a specific purpose for example reducing the cost. 
    Example: you have a fully functional conditioner that one of the ingredients is keratin. You do knockout keratin and see how your formula works without it. If there was no difference then you don't use keratin anymore and reduce your product cost. 

    If you don't have a fully functional formula and you also don't know what each ingredient is doing in the formula, i would advise as Perry said first make 1 ingredient with water and preservative and see, then add ane more and see and so on instead of adding 20 ingredients and making a bad product, then making 20 knockout formulas and still make bad products and at the end be confused that what was the purpose, benefit and result  of all these experiments. 

    Now don't say i know what each ingredient is doing in my formula πŸ˜‰
    I'm not saying what my formula's ingredients do
    Just their impact on what I read
    And the experiments I did I realized.
    The only question I asked was whether the amount of cationic surfactant in my system is low, which does not lead to straightening hair after ironing and washing?πŸ€”
  • ZahraZahra Member
    I do 9 to 10 hours of experimental work.
    On the other hand, I do research at home.
    Thank you for your guidance
    But I have to come to a few other conclusions myself.
  • Hi, Zahra! What a topic! Let me try to help you. Go through this topics according to your problem:

    If your problem is the performance of your product:
    •  Try to increase the amount of surfactants (in total)
    • "Cocamidopropyl Betaine" (CAPB) and "Sodium Lauryl Ether Sulfate" (SLES) are good options and make a really good foam (this system will be more viscous, so don't use too much "CAPB" because "SLES" will react with it)
    • It's not spreading properly? Issues with hardness? Increase a little bit the percentage of emollients (oils and waxes)
    • Feeling on skin not so good? Silicones. But not too much, only one can work well. Maybe a volatile silicone like "Cyclopentasiloxane" works better (as it's liquid and increases spreadability nicely, also it's very easy to homogenize)... you can use some kind of powdered sensory modifier like "Talc" or "Tapioca Starch"

     If your problem is with the foam in specific:
    • Silicones could be the problem, once they're foam inibitors, just like oils, alcohols, glycerides and some solvents as acetone
    • You can also try to use (very) low concentrarions of "Xanthan Gum" (or other gum) to stabilize this foam (but the final aspect of your product will be not so beauty, so make sure you have no grums in it)
    • If you choose to use "CAPB" and "SLES", the foam will increase

    If your problem is with conditioning the hair:
    • Choose 1 or 2 of these to add: "Polyquaternium-10", "Behentrimonium Chloride", "Cetrimonium Chloride"
    • I'm not sure about the aspect of your cleanser, but if you don't mind about transparency at all, try "Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol"

    If your problem is with keratin:
    • As an active, use it at the max of 1% because if you overtake this level it will be a waste of money (because it would not have a better impact in the formulation)
    • Keratin can break the viscosity of your formulation in some way, so continue stirring it for a while until everything is homogenized again

    If your problem is the tecnical procedures to formulate:
    • Realize what step is being hard to you and tell us exactly what it is. Is the heating? Mixing? Reach homogeniciety? Thick the system? pH stability? Percentages/concentrations? Raw materials? Etc...


    And... here some tips I think could help you through the process:

    • Less is better! As other said, your formulation is really big. You have a lot of ingredients, some of them from the same category, what is unecessary. This will impact negatively your job because the formulation will be more expensive with more ingredients (even if in low concentrations), so, try to reduce them to 1 of each category and see what happens. Then, try to improve the formula adding only the necessary, one ingredient per time.

    • Have in mind that everyone has different types of hair, so your product will not be able to help everyone. This happens with all the cosmetics and it's fine! I know you're trying your best, so keep in that!

    • The best product to you is not the better to your company, sometimes (and it happens a lot!). Try to cut expenses reducing the ingredients and you'll be an angel that can save a lot of money and time for them! Also, there is more people working in the same product than you? Listen what they have to say and search for opinions of colleagues to have a better guidance if you want to.

    • English is not the main language of many of us, and it's ok! Mine is not pretty good too (sometimes I use a translator or a dictionary to make sure I'm doing it correctly)... Well, tell us where are you from (which country) and what language do you speak (your native language) so we may eventually find someone that speaks the same language that you. If you're having issues with english or have doubts about how to explain your problems with this formulation, this could help a little bit more.

    • I'm not sure about the cosmetics regulations of your country, but always make sure everything is alright with that (concentrations, ingredients, etc). If your main goal is to export your products, have in mind which country is your target and take a read on the regulation that is applied there (EU, FDA, ANVISA...)


    Finally, let me know if this was helpful and good luck with your project! (:
  • Zahra said:
    Hi
    Ingredients
    Water
    Glyoxylic acid
    Glycolic acid
    Polyquaternium 6
    Phenoxyethanol 
    Glyoxylic acid is your functional ingredient. Not keratin. Not dimethicone, not cationic polymers.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Dupont says glycolic has some effect too but I would take it with a shovel of salt as they sell it
    https://www.cosmeticsandtoiletries.com/formulas-products/hair-care/article/21836184/determining-the-effects-of-glycolic-acid-in-hair-care-products

    Hello, thank you. Yes, I know that glyoxylic acid is used instead of formaldehyde, but I do not know the percentage of use in terms of molarity or its normality, and I did not see anywhere.
    I know that the rest of the ingredients help not to damage the hair during ironing or the hair does not lose its softness during washing.
  • ZahraZahra Member
    Thank you for your good guidance
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