Thinking outside the box on soaping.

GraillotionGraillotion Member
edited January 14 in Off Topic
First let me say, I have no issues with soaping, I use the Gold standard, the Silver standard, and the Bronze standard and the participation trophy in prevention.

But as the proverbial thinker....as I was strolling through the garden this morning, some thoughts came to me.  And mainy these thoughts came to me, because I help some beginner natural formulators.

So first let me see if I understand soaping....it is the creation of tiny bubbles on the skin, that give a whitish appearance during rub in.  The solution....break the surface tension on these bubbles...so the white bubbles do not create the whitish cast.

So the Gold Standard:  Use dimethicone to break surface tension...and it overcomes about every formulation mistake you can throw at it.

Silver Standard:  Now I may have silver and bronze transposed...but let's not argue the semantics... Using light weight emollients (often esters) to try and do what dimethicone does...and reduce surface tension.  I use Isoamyl Laurate (and others) for this purpose.  Obviously this takes many times more the amount of dimethicone, to do an inferior job.

Bronze Standard:  I'll toss two things into this grouping.... Using some cetyl alcohol, and Jojoba Floraesters (I use KW-20).

Participation Trophy:  Just using less soapy emulsifiers, or if using OliveM 1000, moving it to the water phase.  And of course....simply not using too much emulsifier.

So what I would like to challenge is....not a repeat of the above....but what other possible ingredients that are commonly available....might be good at breaking surface tension.  The mind naturally goes to light weight emollients, but as the bronze standard reveals....they do not have to be in that category.  So even if your idea is only theory, let's chew on it together.  I have never been one to think that everything good has already been discovered.  I am always looking over the edge....I think the world might be round...not flat!

Throw your ideas out there for peer evaluation...and let's discover together.   What hidden gem... can break surface tension effectively...and is not named dimethicone.

Please understand...I use dimethicone, so I am NOT a detractor of dimethicone.

Was there a category I overlooked?
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Comments

  • Then within the context of your post, I'm really left field and outside the box..... we saponify plant oils to make soap. Yep, these products of the saponification reaction break surface tension effectively, and are not named dimethicone.
    Dr. Mike Thair
    Cofounder & Chief Formulator
    Indochine Natural
  • For those wondering what a walk in the garden looks like in January, this picture was taken this morning.
  • mikethair said:
    Then within the context of your post, I'm really left field and outside the box..... we saponify plant oils to make soap. Yep, these products of the saponification reaction break surface tension effectively, and are not named dimethicone.
    I was wondering about that concept.  As I use soap in day to day applications to break surface tension on liquids.  So....is soap a possible answer to soaping?

  • MaydayMayday Member
    edited January 15
    Ethanol and IPA reduce the surface tension of water, though I'm not sure the magnitude of effect if you already have surfactants. Or if it'll inhibit soaping in an emulsion.

    Anecdotally, ethanol or IPA reduces the foaming of a dilute dawn dish detergent solution. I think it boosts the cleaning potential also (seems to pick up skin oil more efficiently from my glasses) but I haven't AB tested it properly and may be fooling myself.

    https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Surface-tension-of-ethanol-1-water-2-mixtures-at-293-15-K-Vazquez-et-al_fig6_244116941
    ⚠️ I have a lot of ideas, but not much experience! Please keep this in mind when reading my suggestions. ⚠️
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited January 15
    1 or 2% GMS may help too.

    Emulsifier type has a very big roll. 

    0.6% SSL with 8% oil phase do soap.

    3% Polyglyceryl 4 Laurate with 4% oil phase and 0.3% xanthan gum doesn't soap at all. 
  • @Graillotion

    Aloha, I recognized that foliage instantly, and the Ohia trees, you must be in Hawaii! And I’m guessing Big Island, somewhere south of Hilo? Based on the ferns I’m gonna guess Volcano. 

    Sorry don’t mean to be creepy, I just love it when I see encounter other big islanders.
  • @Graillotion

    Aloha, I recognized that foliage instantly, and the Ohia trees, you must be in Hawaii! And I’m guessing Big Island, somewhere south of Hilo? Based on the ferns I’m gonna guess Volcano. 

    Sorry don’t mean to be creepy, I just love it when I see encounter other big islanders.
    Yes... Near Volcano.

    Aloha.

  • Lowering the overall HLB value by adding low HLB emulsifier. As @Abdullah mentioned. 2-3% should help, you also build some viscosity to the product. 
    Never tried it with liquid emulsifier. Could work too? 
  • Bo77Bo77 Member
    For those wondering what a walk in the garden looks like in January, this picture was taken this morning.
    such a beautiful place. Looks very serene  <3 Kitty also :-) 
  • Bo77Bo77 Member
    Paprik said:
    Lowering the overall HLB value by adding low HLB emulsifier. As @Abdullah mentioned. 2-3% should help, you also build some viscosity to the product. 
    Never tried it with liquid emulsifier. Could work too? 
    Yep, works also. For some reason I can't stand GSC, (everyone loves it here, I know and I apologize lol) even small amount ruins my formula sensory profile, no matter what else I put in it. But I like Glyceryl Oleate as co em. Low HLB, never had issues with soaping. Nothing what can't be fixed. Also, Glyceryl oleate citrate, caprylic/capric triglyceride is great in small amount as co em. But it's high HLB, anionic. It gives slightly rich, but not heavy feel. I can't take any stearate I don't know why, but even small amount and I feel "the drag". Wondering why. Even it's sound like nonsense, I know. I guess,I just prefer more "airy" products lol.
  • Bo77 said:

    Yep, works also. For some reason I can't stand GSC, (everyone loves it here, I know and I apologize lol) even small amount ruins my formula sensory profile, no matter what else I put in it. But I like Glyceryl Oleate as co em. Low HLB, never had issues with soaping. Nothing what can't be fixed. Also, Glyceryl oleate citrate, caprylic/capric triglyceride is great in small amount as co em. But it's high HLB, anionic. It gives slightly rich, but not heavy feel. I can't take any stearate I don't know why, but even small amount and I feel "the drag". Wondering why. Even it's sound like nonsense, I know. I guess,I just prefer more "airy" products lol.
    Funny how we each have different perceptions.  When I was evaluating co-emulsifiers, I was comparing GSC with Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate, and I felt like SSG ruined my textures, even at .2%  :D 
    However, I am working on a project right now, that was low enough pH, that it took me out of the GSC window...and I used SSG as the Co.....and I really really like the texture.
    I also use GO in just about everything under the sun....but more for the re-fatting aspect...and less for what it is doing as an emulsifier.
    Stearic acid....is also in my rear view mirror.

  • Bo77Bo77 Member
    Graillotion- I use GO almost in everything, too. And can say in the same manner also. I like to combine more ingredients in lower amounts and GO is one of them. Helping to stabilize, co em, but "re-fat" it too. Not necessary to emulsify, but it doesn't hurt if it helps with it. :-) I think we work similarly but on different feels, you go for dry faster feel, matte. I go more for rich, moist, not greasy and dewy lol. What I'm trying to say, I'm this small "perfectionist" where I can feel any tiny difference and it's driving me crazy, seriously lol. My sis is laughing at me already. Yeah, and this .2% I know very well what you talking about  :D .

    Are you officially bragging with your garden?  ;) It's just beautiful, seriously. I love nature. I'm more mountain type of preference, growing up not that far from where Pharma is, and far from your island. But your pictures are gorgeous, very peace inducing.  <3

  • Bo77 said:
    Graillotion- I use GO almost in everything, too. And can say in the same manner also. I like to combine more ingredients in lower amounts and GO is one of them. Helping to stabilize, co em, but "re-fat" it too. Not necessary to emulsify, but it doesn't hurt if it helps with it. :-) I think we work similarly but on different feels, you go for dry faster feel, matte. I go more for rich, moist, not greasy and dewy lol. What I'm trying to say, I'm this small "perfectionist" where I can feel any tiny difference and it's driving me crazy, seriously lol. My sis is laughing at me already. Yeah, and this .2% I know very well what you talking about  :D .

    Are you officially bragging with your garden?  ;) It's just beautiful, seriously. I love nature. I'm more mountain type of preference, growing up not that far from where Pharma is, and far from your island. But your pictures are gorgeous, very peace inducing.  <3

    Yeah....two peas in a pod.  Someday when Covid allows...I think I jump 1.5 ponds....and visit my Swiss friend. :) 

    I do something else in my spare time....I breed flowers.  This is a first bloom of one of my new creations...just this week.
  • What about solid particles like starch, clay, mica, silica? - I don't know, just throwing some thing in your basket.

    Lovely garden :) :) :).
  • Pattsi said:
    What about solid particles like starch, clay, mica, silica? - I don't know, just throwing some thing in your basket.


    You know...I generally finish all products with 

    Polymethylsilsesquioxane


    Maybe this is helping?  I chew on it for a few days.

    Made these as well...they are all siblings...from the same seed pod.  50% related to the one above.

  • I think most of the common strategies have been covered including the low HLB. Not much more to add on. 

    Normally if i have to use a higher percentage of emulsifier(s), i'd just use silicones. Dimethicone or volatile, depending on purpose. 

    If not, for my normal combination, i'd just use a bodying emulsifier blend (at minimum) with synthetic polymer (for required viscosity). If it still soaps slightly, though not that often, i'd just increase the lipids. 
  • Bo77Bo77 Member
    edited January 19
    You created these flowers? You are talented. Praise where it's due.  :)  Very nice. 
  • Bo77 said:
    Pattsi said:
    What about solid particles like starch, clay, mica, silica? - I don't know, just throwing some thing in your basket.


    You know...I generally finish all products with 

    Polymethylsilsesquioxane


    Maybe this is helping?  I chew on it for a few days.

    Made these as well...they are all siblings...from the same seed pod.  50% related to the one above.

    You created these flowers? You are talented. Praise where it's due.  :)  Very nice. 
    Actually....no talent required....just patience and repetition.  A few other examples of my patience and repetition.

  • Seeing theses flowers, Hibicus is (or maybe) potentially good for skin (?). There're some studies on Hibiscus rosa-sinensis and most Korean konws Hibicus, let's make some brews.


    You know...I generally finish all products with 

    Polymethylsilsesquioxane

    I knew you use silicone, so I mentioned natural-ish(?) ingredients for your apprentice. 


  • Pattsi said:
    Seeing theses flowers, Hibicus is (or maybe) potentially good for skin (?). There're some studies on Hibiscus rosa-sinensis and most Korean konws Hibicus, let's make some brews.


    I knew you use silicone, so I mentioned natural-ish(?) ingredients 

    Hehehe....it is my 'natural way' to finish a product:  with a kiss of dimethicone, a splash of cyclomethicone, and a dusting of Polymethylsilsesquioxane.


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