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Can you help me decide on an emulsifier combo?
I am making a body butter/cream with a 20% oil phase. I want to try something different from my normal Montanov 202 because it’s giving me a hard time on this one for some reason.
Can you help me choose a solid combo of the following? half of them I’ve never even used once. I’m going for minimal soaping, and minimal draggy feeling. Rich, moisturizing is feel a plus.
Montanov 68
Montanov L
Olivem 1000
Olivem 800
Glyceryl Stearate
Glyceryl Stearate Citrate
Glyceryl Stearate SE
Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate
Ceteareth-20
Cetearyl Alcohol
Cetyl Alcohol
Polyglcyeryl-3 Methylglucose Distearate
E-Wax NF (does any one even use this stuff anymore?)
Sepinov EMT 10
Sepimax Zen
Sepiplus 400
Aristoflex AVC
PolymulseI don’t want to use only a polymer but I do love incorporating them as a part of a formula for the feel they contribute.
If you’re wondering what oils I’ll be using the answer is mostly esters like AB C12-15, Isoamyl Laurate, Cetyl Hexanoate. Along with a little shea butter, of course.
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33 Replies
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Hehehe….I don’t see any ‘165’ on there….is PEG free a requirement?
I am guessing you will like the M 68 with just a kiss of SSG…(supporting role…and GSC could also be used)… some cetyl alcohol (since I know what you like)…Some Aristo AVC…(assuming no conflicts). And finish with GMS to taste.
A new emollient (to me) I have come across…that has really impressed me (can get at Thai Place)…has been Dicaprylyl Carbonate:
LipidSoftTM Dry (Dicaprylyl Carbonate) (myskinrecipes.com)
Talk about a stunning after feel….most leave a minimal afterfeel…this one…is in a league of its own.
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Yes unfortunately it must be PEG-free and dimethicone free, believe me i wish i could use 165 my life would so much easier.
I will try your suggested combo with 68. what flavor am i adding when i add GMS “to taste”? or do you just mean for thickening?
I will absolutely include that emollient on my next thai order.
thanks!
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My problem is not so much getting a stable emulsion, that I can and have been doing with 202 easily enough. The problem arises in that the amount of emulsifier i need to use for a stable emulsion produces a little bit of soaping. Not a ton, probably an acceptable amount for 95% of people, but I want no soaping at all, whatsoever.
If only I could add dimethicone, problem would be solved methinks.
I’m starting to think it’s just not possible to have a stable body butter with zero dimethicone and zero soaping.
But i will continue to play around with these different emulsifiers until I figure it out…or go crazy in the process.
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GeorgeBenson said:Yes unfortunately it must be PEG-free and dimethicone free, believe me i wish i could use 165 my life would so much easier.
I will try your suggested combo with 68. what flavor am i adding when i add GMS “to taste”? or do you just mean for thickening?
I will absolutely include that emollient on my next thai order.
thanks!
Yes….to taste…is like salt..hehehe… Add GMS till you get the viscosity you want.
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Building a cascade of emollients….will help with soaping.
Consumers are not that bright…. Could you use caprylyl methicone….which is incredible against soaping….without them knowing it was a ‘cone’?
Try a couple of percent of TEC in the next version. It is a nice emollient…and many swear it reduces soaping.
You might read this old thread…and see if you can glean any ideas….
Thinking outside the box on soaping. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)
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@GeorgeBenson take a look at this old thread:
TEC as an antisoaping device…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)
And the comment from the brilliant Swiss mind.
I would suggest…a 2-3% try. Replace an emollient of your choice…with this…but keep some of what you were replacing….to work towards the cascade.
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I will definitely give this a try, thanks.
In this scenario would you add TEC to heated oil phase or during cool down?
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GeorgeBenson said:I will definitely give this a try, thanks.
In this scenario would you add TEC to heated oil phase or during cool down?
You can heat it (in oil) ….no sweat.
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It really depends on what kind of texture you prefer your butter or cream to be.
I’d say 2.5% - 3% of a rich emulsifier (eg, 68) with 0.8% - 1% Aristoflex will do.
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I don’t have much experience with it, but isn’t TEC more of a humectant and water soluble?
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@jemolian i’d prefer a thick, creamy, rich, texture. the more of that the better really. my preference for texture is flexible, however my hatred of soaping is not. I am going to give the 68 a try today, will report back how it goes.
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You can add slightly more butters if you really prefer more creamy. Aristoflex will give it a thicker texture compared to other polymers so you can adjust accordingly.
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@jemolian Thanks for the tip. Do you think a stabilizer like carbomer is needed here with the 68 and AVC? (And I’ll probably throw in SSG + GMS + Cetyl too as graillotion suggested.)
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You don’t really need to make it that complicated. Just 68+AVC will do, lol. If you think AVC is too rich, but you still prefer a thick viscosity, switch to the carbomer if you have any on hand.
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Ceteareth-20 is ethoxylated, but it presents in your list. Why?
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Because the people i am making this for are not aware of and do not care about the “eths”, only the PEGs.
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@GeorgeBenson Just curious….technically Ceteareth-20 is considered withint the PEGs family, so I don’t know what would the reasoning be to include this one (that I like very much) and not others.
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@jemolian see above… i dont know either, because it is not MY reasoning, i am just following orders.
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GeorgeBenson said:@jemolian see above… i dont know either, because it is not MY reasoning, i am just following orders.
With those orders….you should easily be able to kill your soaping with caprylyl methicone. It is NOT dimethicone.
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well they tell me no silicones so that ingredient they’d probably take issue with. But if you know of one that doesnt end in cone…please let me know.
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Graillotion said:@GeorgeBenson take a look at this old thread:TEC as an antisoaping device…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)
And the comment from the brilliant Swiss mind.
I would suggest…a 2-3% try. Replace an emollient of your choice…with this…but keep some of what you were replacing….to work towards the cascade.
Hi there @Graillotion - Interesting (sorry if I am hijacking this thread!) - I am also wanting to make an insect repellent and have come up with a formula that I have no idea if it will be any good for mozzies (but I like the small ha!). So mine is basically Water, Neem Oil, Coco Caprylate, and essential Oils - Citronella, Peppermint, Kunzea, Tea Tree + emulsifier Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100) Zepimax Zen, Preservative. I want the lotion to be quite think milk like. After reading this might at 1% TEC. What are your thoughts and do you have any special ingredient especially for mozzies? ( I know TEC isnt for mozzies!) I just want to make for my partner who spends lots of time in wet tropics bushland - and lots of ticks and mozzies - and I dont want him using DEET anymore. Any advice is appreciated. Cheers
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Squinny said:Graillotion said:@GeorgeBenson take a look at this old thread:
TEC as an antisoaping device…. — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)
And the comment from the brilliant Swiss mind.
I would suggest…a 2-3% try. Replace an emollient of your choice…with this…but keep some of what you were replacing….to work towards the cascade.
Hi there @Graillotion - Interesting (sorry if I am hijacking this thread!) - I am also wanting to make an insect repellent and have come up with a formula that I have no idea if it will be any good for mozzies (but I like the small ha!). So mine is basically Water, Neem Oil, Coco Caprylate, and essential Oils - Citronella, Peppermint, Kunzea, Tea Tree + emulsifier Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100) Zepimax Zen, Preservative. I want the lotion to be quite think milk like. After reading this might at 1% TEC. What are your thoughts and do you have any special ingredient especially for mozzies? ( I know TEC isnt for mozzies!) I just want to make for my partner who spends lots of time in wet tropics bushland - and lots of ticks and mozzies - and I dont want him using DEET anymore. Any advice is appreciated. Cheers
Yes…you need the TEC…as a solubilizer for the EO’s…and 1% was the rate I used. Mix the TEC and the EO’s seperately…and then add that slurry post emulsion.
The problem with that concept….is it will only protect right in the neighborhood of 17 minutes. After that point…all the volatile EO molecules will have jumped off….and the victim will be ripe for blood letting.
It takes a TON more work….to get it to last a few hours.
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Combination of EMT10 and Zen can stabilize even high oil phase and won’t cause any soaping at all. You can even add some cetearyl alcohol and other waxy materials to make it feel more substantial.
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@ngarayeva001i think i might try that. What % of EMT and Zen would you recommend i start with for 20% oils?
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I think those percentages…would be based on the viscosity you want.
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