Sucrose Stearate Cold Process Emulsion

Hallo..

I've been trying out a very basic cold process sprayable emulsion with sucrose stearate, on the day of formulation, the consistency and texture would be quite nice and smooth with just a little air bubbles but 24 hours later, they became a foamy mousse. I've tried using 3 different types of gums (guar, xanthan and solagum), I've added the SS to water, to oil. I've tried applying high shear for 1-2 minutes before adding the gum, after adding the gum, tried changing the preservative and I still get the same results. The only variable I haven't changed is coconut oil, could it be an incompatibility with the coconut oil? Can someone tell me what is causing this please? Here's the formula for 100g:

Water 71.1%
Glycerine 5%
Xanthan 0.4%

Sucrose Stearate 2.5%
Coconut Oil 20%

Preservative Eco 1%

1. Hydrate xanthan in glycerine
2. Disperse SS in coconut oil, added water and whisk to emulsify. Used bamix to homogenise for about 1.5 minutes.
3. Add the gum/glycerine, then preservative. adjusted ph from 5.2-5.4 (for the different trials).

On day of formulation


24 hours later


Thank you ❤️

Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Don't whisk and use Bamix fully immersed so there's no air getting sucked into your emulsion.
    Or try d phase emulsion.
  • ggpetrovggpetrov Member
    I used to be use SS HLB 15 as a secondary emulsifier in the water phase, but to be honest I didn't like its sticky feeling. About your formulation, I think the amount of SS is too small! Also as far as I know SS behaves better if it is pre-dissolved in water and left to rest for an hour or two before emulsification.I think, but maybe i'm wrong that at the second picture you have an emulsion fail. If you leave it for a couple of days it is possible to separate the water from oil.



  • ggpetrov said:
    I used to be use SS HLB 15 as a secondary emulsifier in the water phase, but to be honest I didn't like its sticky feeling. About your formulation, I think the amount of SS is too small! Also as far as I know SS behaves better if it is pre-dissolved in water and left to rest for an hour or two before emulsification.I think, but maybe i'm wrong that at the second picture you have an emulsion fail. If you leave it for a couple of days it is possible to separate the water from oil.

    Sorry to hijack the post, but what percentage did you use sucrose stearate for it to feel sticky? I was thinking of trying it as a co-emulsifier instead of glyceryl stearate citrate.
  • ggpetrovggpetrov Member
    I tried a few combinations : SS + GMS SE, SS + GMS Citrate, SS + Olivem 1000. I have used 2-3% SS + 2-3% from the others. From my point of view the most pleasant combination was SS+GMS SE, and the second best was SS+Olivem 1000 (both at the water phase). SS+GMS Citrate was a kind of heavy and draggy for me. Just to notice, that i've used SS not only as a coemulsifier, but as a moisturizing agent! I think you can't use SS instead GMS Citrate because they are quite different by their nature. You can use both instead.

  • ggpetrov said:
    I tried a few combinations : SS + GMS SE, SS + GMS Citrate, SS + Olivem 1000. I have used 2-3% SS + 2-3% from the others. From my point of view the most pleasant combination was SS+GMS SE, and the second best was SS+Olivem 1000 (both at the water phase). SS+GMS Citrate was a kind of heavy and draggy for me. Just to notice, that i've used SS not only as a coemulsifier, but as a moisturizing agent! I think you can't use SS instead GMS Citrate because they are quite different by their nature. You can use both instead.

    Thank you, that's helpful to me.

    Also, out of interest, do you prefer adding Olivem 1000 in the water phase rather than the oil phase? Is there a difference in the final product?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @helenhelen:

    Yes, you should add liquid crystal emulsifiers, such as Olivem 1000, to the water phase.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @helenhelen:

    Yes, you should add liquid crystal emulsifiers, such as Olivem 1000, to the water phase.
    Thanks Mark. That's interesting as most people seem to add Olivem 1000 to the oil phase. I haven't used it myself but I've been looking online the last couple of days for a scientific reason for why it's better to add it (or any other emulsifier) to the water phase. I did see an old post on this forum where someone said they always used it in the water phase and never got the soaping effect. Are you able to enlighten me?

    (This thread has slightly derailed, sorry!)
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @helenhelen

    It has to do with the formation of the packing structures of the liquid crystals ... it's a different organization if you add the LC Emulsifier first to water as opposed to adding the LC Emulsifier first to oil.  You get a different skin sensorial.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Africanbug:

    When you cold process Sucrose Stearate you're going to introduce lots of air into the emulsion if you do not first add the Xanthan Gum/Glycerin slurry.  So, change your procedure to first add Xanthan/Glycerin to water stirring to hydrate the Xanthan.  Then add your oils phase and homogenize.

    In your particular formula ... you should drop the Coconut Oil to 10% -12% ... 20% is quite high imho.  You might also try increasing the Xanthan Gum to 0.6% or so.  I normally add Glyceryl Oleate as a co-emulsifier for Sucrose Stearate for cold process formulas.

    I'm assuming you are first heating the Coconut Oil to melt to liquid or are you using a liquid Coconut Oil ... Or, are you perhaps add the semi-solid Coconut Oil without first heating?
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • ggpetrovggpetrov Member
    edited June 17
    I know a lot of people which don't like Olivem 1000, but I can't imagine why? I like it a lot, and some of my best lotions are based on it. Olivem 1000 gives a deep moisturizing feel on the skin by itself, but I always combine it with other emulsifier. My best men's moisturizer which has fantastic sensorials on the skin is based on Olivem+Emulprot.

    With Olivem 1000 is possible to make that so called "water gel" which is only Olivem + water. If you add a little Dimethicone you will get a great summer moisturizer, which is breathable, light with fantastic softening properties.



  • Pharma said:
    Don't whisk and use Bamix fully immersed so there's no air getting sucked into your emulsion.
    Or try d phase emulsion.
    thank you @Pharma, can I use the glycerine with SS for the d phase? sorry for my ignorance, I've not tried d phase emulsions before,,
  • ggpetrov said:
     Also as far as I know SS behaves better if it is pre-dissolved in water and left to rest for an hour or two before emulsification.

    @g@ggpetrov I tried that too but it doesn't improve anything and I find emulsions are more homogeneous with SS added to oil phase. thank you for helping though ☺️
  • @Africanbug:

    When you cold process Sucrose Stearate you're going to introduce lots of air into the emulsion if you do not first add the Xanthan Gum/Glycerin slurry.  So, change your procedure to first add Xanthan/Glycerin to water stirring to hydrate the Xanthan.  Then add your oils phase and homogenize.

    In your particular formula ... you should drop the Coconut Oil to 10% -12% ... 20% is quite high imho.  You might also try increasing the Xanthan Gum to 0.6% or so.  I normally add Glyceryl Oleate as a co-emulsifier for Sucrose Stearate for cold process formulas.

    I'm assuming you are first heating the Coconut Oil to melt to liquid or are you using a liquid Coconut Oil ... Or, are you perhaps add the semi-solid Coconut Oil without first heating?
    @MarkBroussard. I did try adding the gum/glycerine to water prior to adding oil phase for emulsification but I thought the emulsion that resulted was rather "fluffy" which prompted me to add the gum after emulsification. I will try your suggestion again. 

    thank you very much for all your suggestions, that gives me something new to work with. i left the coconut oil to stand at room temperature until it is completely liquid..
  • @ggpetrov I like olivem too, I find it makes stable and elegant emulsions, only setback is it can't be cold processed. I was trying out SS because I want a cold process emulsion to incorporate heat sensitive oils..
  • ggpetrov said:
    I know a lot of people which don't like Olivem 1000, but I can't imagine why? I like it a lot, and some of my best lotions are based on it. Olivem 1000 gives a deep moisturizing feel on the skin by itself, but I always combine it with other emulsifier. My best men's moisturizer which has fantastic sensorials on the skin is based on Olivem+Emulprot.

    With Olivem 1000 is possible to make that so called "water gel" which is only Olivem + water. If you add a little Dimethicone you will get a great summer moisturizer, which is breathable, light with fantastic softening properties.



    I had a chemist make me a formulation a long time ago which used Olivem 1000. It felt nice but soaped a lot. I wonder if they added it to the oil phase (as all the instructions for Olivem 1000 seem to recommend) and if it would have been better added in the water phase. The formulation was also silicone-free so didn’t get the anti foaming properties of dimethicone.

    Do you generally find Olivem 1000 works best with low levels of oil? And do you also always add dimethicone?
  • @helenhelen

    It has to do with the formation of the packing structures of the liquid crystals ... it's a different organization if you add the LC Emulsifier first to water as opposed to adding the LC Emulsifier first to oil.  You get a different skin sensorial.
    Thank you. I’m curious to buy it and try it out both ways to see the difference.

    Do you think Olivem 900 (sorbitan olivate on its own) should also be added first to water when using as a co emulsifier? It’s waxy flakes and the common instructions are to add it to the oil phase first. It is apparently dispersible in water though. I have some coming in the mail.
  • africanbugafricanbug Member
    edited June 17
    @helenhelen

    It has to do with the formation of the packing structures of the liquid crystals ... it's a different organization if you add the LC Emulsifier first to water as opposed to adding the LC Emulsifier first to oil.  You get a different skin sensorial.
    Thank you. I’m curious to buy it and try it out both ways to see the difference.

    Do you think Olivem 900 (sorbitan olivate on its own) should also be added first to water when using as a co emulsifier? It’s waxy flakes and the common instructions are to add it to the oil phase first. It is apparently dispersible in water though. I have some coming in the mail.
    @helenhelen
    hi, it is interesting to learn new things but maybe you can start another discussion separately as it is not very fair to divert my post to your end?

  • ggpetrovggpetrov Member
    There is a detailed explanation of how to use Olivem 1000 on the Hallstar website. There are two ways in general - to add it to the water or into the oil phase. If you add it to the water phase the soaping effect could be moderated very well. I have never had this effect yet, even if I use only vegetable oil and no any silicones. The important thing here is the viscosity of the emulsion, which is more liquid than these made with Olivem into the oil phase. However I find the Olivem 1000 quite stable emulsifier, with exceptional ellectrolyte tolerance.

  • @helenhelen
    hi, it is interesting to learn new things but maybe you can start another discussion separately as it is not very fair to divert my post to your end?

    Yes, sorry it ended up going quite off topic there. Good luck with your formulation.
  • Yes, sorry it ended up going quite off topic there. Good luck with your formulation.
    @helenhelen thank you for being understanding ❤️
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    thank you @Pharma, can I use the glycerine with SS for the d phase? sorry for my ignorance, I've not tried d phase emulsions before,,
    You more or less INEVITABLY HAVE TO USE glycerol for d phase emulsification ;) .

    Regarding a question further up concerning to which phase an emulsifier should be added. Apart from pure liquid crystal emulsifiers (which are, from a physical point of view, usually VERY chaotic and unpredictable), the perfect emulsifier would be added to the interphase (that's the super fine surface between the two phases). Alas, most cosmetic emulsifiers are far from perfect... D phase emulsification is therefore the closest one gets to adding it to the interphase.
    Scientifically (which isn't always very practical), there's a bunch of rules and physical laws dictating the better phase (if the interface isn't an option)... there is no definite answer and all depends on everything... and it boils down to what science wants to prevent: trial and error... more or less 'the usual everyday routine when creating emulsions'. It could be a different, better world if one were for example to use HLD instead of HLB (HLB sucks and doesn't really work other than predicting if it's going to be rather w/o or o/w). As a current example: Olivem 900 is sorbitan olivate with an HLB of 4.7 and Olivem 1000 is cetearyl olivate (a wax which doesn't have an HLB value) and sorbitan olivate and yet, it has an HLB of 8-9. Either someone is cheating and/or HLB is arbitrary.
  • Pharma said:
    thank you @Pharma, can I use the glycerine with SS for the d phase? sorry for my ignorance, I've not tried d phase emulsions before,,
    You more or less INEVITABLY HAVE TO USE glycerol for d phase emulsification ;) .

    @Pharma thank you ☺️ 
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