Difference between dehydroxanthan gum and xanthan gum in an emulsion

helenhelenhelenhelen Member
in Formulating
Does dehydroxanthan gum (Amaze XT) perform any differently to xanthan gum in an emulsion? In particular, is it any less gloopy, smelly or soaping?

I currently use a mix of xanthan and sclerotium gum but I'm interested to know if it's worth trying Amaze XT.

Thanks.

Comments

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    Dehyroxanthan Gum will actually decrease the viscosity of your emulsion, depending on the ingredients ... it is quite difficult to work with and is actually an ingredient used in hair styling products ... it is not a general purpose thickening gum for skin care products.  Unless you are making a hair styling product, best you avoid it.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    MarkBroussard said:
    Dehyroxanthan Gum will actually decrease the viscosity of your emulsion, depending on the ingredients ... it is quite difficult to work with and is actually an ingredient used in hair styling products ... it is not a general purpose thickening gum for skin care products.  Unless you are making a hair styling product, best you avoid it.
    Thanks, that’s very helpful. That’s one less thing to try then!
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited June 2020
    Speaking of Xanthan gum....just curious, I am seeing complaints about it, and wonder at what levels these issues occur.  I use at either .2% and one formula at .3%.  I also only use the soft version.
    Where do people start to notice negative effects?  (I have never noticed a negative effect.)  I incorporate into water phase with high shear before I even begin to heat the phase.

  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    Graillotion said:
    Speaking of Xanthan gum....just curious, I am seeing complaints about it, and wonder at what levels these issues occur.  I use at either .2% and one formula at .3%.  I also only use the soft version.
    Where do people start to notice negative effects?  (I have never noticed a negative effect.)  I incorporate into water phase with high shear before I even begin to heat the phase.

    I guess as always it depends on what else is in the formulation, but I see negative effects at 0.5%. But that is in a formulation that is already high in ingredients that contribute to glueyness, smell and soaping. Xanthan gum manages to exacerbate all those properties.
  • jemolianjemolian Member
    The Dehydroxanthan Gum that i had made my cream pill or ball up, so it's not something i'd use again in a leave on product, so i've also used it to thicken a micellar gel formulation instead. 

    Normally if i have to add a gum, i'll normally add HEC if it's a heated water phase. Have you considered Solagum Ax or Solagum Tara?  
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    jemolian said:
    The Dehydroxanthan Gum that i had made my cream pill or ball up, so it's not something i'd use again in a leave on product, so i've also used it to thicken a micellar gel formulation instead. 

    Normally if i have to add a gum, i'll normally add HEC if it's a heated water phase. Have you considered Solagum Ax or Solagum Tara?  
    Thanks @jemolian, that’s helpful to know your experience with dehydroxanthan gym.

    I haven’t tried HEC, Solagum AX or Solagum Tara yet as the combo of xanthan and sclerotium has been ok and I wasn’t sure if other “natural” gums or blends would do any better in terms of both stability and smoothness. I replaced some xanthan with sclerotium as it does help with the soaping of the overall product (doesn’t completely eliminate it though). Sclerotium on its own doesn’t seem to give as smooth a product, it starts feeling too slippy/greasy and the cream it forms is quite compact.. it reminds me of a blancmange in terms of the springiness. Do you think any of HEC, Solagum AX or Solagum Tara would do better than a xanthan/sclerotium blend?

    I’ve also tried reducing overall gum, using more solids instead etc, but am still working on getting the perfect consistency and minimising soaping as much as possible.
  • jemolianjemolian Member
    TBH, i'm not really a fan of gums, maybe because it makes my cream looks a little weird during pickup. I have all 5 of the gums (Xanthan, HEC, Sclerotium, Solagum AX & Solagum Tara). Out of the gums, i've tried Xanthan, HEC & Solagum Tara. 

    I don't think it will be easy to avoid soaping because it still largely depends on the formulation, that's why i tend to use polymeric emulsifiers in place. If i had to choose, i'd use HEC if there's a heated phase, at least with HEC i don't experience much of the slight weird skin feel that Xanthan Gum might give, but i don't think HEC would be considered "natural"?. If you prefer a gum that can thicken, you can try Solagum Tara but one version of the cream i made still soaps with it. 
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    jemolian said:
    TBH, i'm not really a fan of gums, maybe because it makes my cream looks a little weird during pickup.
    Do you mean the peaked trail that stretches out from the blob of cream on your fingertips?
    jemolian said:
    If i had to choose, i'd use HEC if there's a heated phase, at least with HEC i don't experience much of the slight weird skin feel that Xanthan Gum might give, but i don't think HEC would be considered "natural"?.
    Hmm it seems to be one of those ingredients where if a brand uses it, they've decided to say it's "natural".

    Do you recommend any preferred brands or grades of HEC?
  • jemolianjemolian Member
    Do you mean the peaked trail that stretches out from the blob of cream on your fingertips?
    Yes, i think that's what it is? It doesn't really look really good with gums most of the time. Or maybe i'm just used to looking at the products with carbomer types. 

    For the HEC, i bought mine from China, but the specs seems to be the similar as the one from lotioncrafter. It hydrates better with heat or higher pH. If i'm being slightly lazy while making a water based serum with HEC, i'll add some Sodium Phytate to help hydrate the HEC, then lower the pH later on. At least i don't have to heat it and still have a chelating agent. :smile:

    https://lotioncrafter.com/products/hydroxyethylcellulose-hec-1?_pos=1&_sid=b8b1a1944&_ss=r
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    @jemolian Thanks for all your help. I've requested a sample of HEC so will give it a go.

    I also realised that HEC is what is used to make the slime in the stuff I've been buying from Amazon (e.g. here) to keep my kids amused during the lockdown. I was wondering what the ingredients were, as they basically just add pigment, repackage it into little packs and sell it in brightly designed boxes (pretty easy business), and presumably as it's classed as a toy rather than a cosmetic product so they don't list an INCI. But while looking up HEC, I see it's sold as a slime ingredient (e.g. here and here).
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